Biden says vaccine mandate for all federal employees is under consideration following VA order
By - faceerase
This will happen everywhere once the vaccines get FDA Approval.
Companies will require it for several reasons:
- they will get tired of seeing large sections of their staff miss work
- they will get tired of seeing their insurance costs skyrocket
- they have a legal obligation to provide a safe work environment
Our nursing staff isn't missing. They're quiting.
Medical imaging here. Lots of openings. I think some people just said screw it and bailed out of the work force. We had a few people who were close to retirement just up and nope out. Not worth it.
One of the biggest reasons was that we did not have enough PPE for a long time.
Even though we had the rare TB patient come in the office we only had two boxes of N95 masks. The majority of our staff were never fitted. We almost ran out of gloves.
As much as healthcare institutions like to pretend, admin really does not give a crap about staff. Now they are paying the price. We cannot handle the patient load because we are so short staffed.
Example. We have a $5000 sign on bonus and base pay of 95k for an MRI tech. Crickets.
Y’all training? Lol.
We have a 2000 bonus if you take on more shifts... crickets
My hospital is super desperate for nurses, er especially. We are offing $85 a hour with a $750 bonus everyday you just show up for work. All from day one of hire. Crickets here too!
Damn. What city?
Humans are starting to realize that health and sanity is more important than 6 figure jobs.
What new shit are nurses dealing with now?
Dude imagine laying yourself out for a year risking death, seeing death, seeing colleagues die because they came to work and isolating from your own family to protect them so basically living like someone deployed to a warzone. Then the solution to all our problems is given away for free and a shit ton of people think its fake. A shit ton of HC providers have justifiably decided they need a new career.
I’ve been in EMS for 7 and a half years in one of the earliest and hardest hit areas of the US during covid and frankly, I’m done. I’m burned out. I’m depressed. My support from above me is zero. We’ve been given zero mental health support. It’s a shame, a job I was once extremely passionate about is something I could care less about at this point in my life.
I’m taking a month leave of absence to get my head straight and to get myself ready to return to my union stagehand job I loved and unfortunately had to walk away from after the entire industry was destroyed virtually overnight by covid. I may not come back after my leave is over.
>return to my union stagehand job I loved
Are you in LA by any chance? It seems like the filming is kicking up again so there is likely plenty of work. Over the past month we've gotten a handful of inquiries from location scouts interested in shooting commercials in our loft, after getting zero inquiries for the duration of the pandemic.
Whatever happens, I hope you can find some enjoyment in whatever you do next. I don't blame you for walking away from an EMS job after all that's happened. I'd do the same, frankly. You guys made incredible sacrifices, and these antivax morons are wasting it and dragging us right back to where we were a year ago. They don't deserve you.
Jersey, working with local 1 in the city. There’s a ton of events lined up in the next few months to make up for the last year and a half of nothing. The thought of the delta variant coming around and fucking everything up again scares the absolute shit out of me, I don’t think I could turn around and do this again.
I appreciate the kind words, it’s been a really tough year and change. I worked harder than I ever did or plan on doing again in my life. The mental tax was just as bad as the physical exhaustion in the thick of it. I was very very fortunate to not have lost anyone close to me and that I didn’t get sick myself or bring it home to any of my roommates.
I used to work in theatre then moved to Paramedicine.
If you need to talk, feel free to DM.
Good on you to take a month out of the game to get your head straight and recharge your batteries.
Remember, for each idiot that you feel you didn't reach or that wasted your energy and resources, you probably made an immeasurably huge impact on someone else's life. Focus on those and ignore the idiots.
This has been stressful all around. As the Sec Defense Lloyd Austin said the other day, “Mental health is health. Period.” We also saw intense stress kick in yesterday for one of America’s favorite olympians Simone Biles. Take the time away that you need. The business will go on I have started hiking in the mountains. Gets me out of my head and not thinking about much other than where I put my feet and getting up & down the hill. Still doing a high stress job, but have an interview today for something new. Thank you for everything you have done as an EMS especially these last 16 months and best wishes to decompress and reset.
Man, I’m sorry you’ve had to go through all of this without proper support. I hope your rest helps you out. Take care.
I wonder what percent of nurses in the US are vaccinated
The latest articles I could find were from June 28:
>Among practicing physicians, 96% have been vaccinated.\* The rate drops to <50% among nurses and even more among aides, especially in nursing homes
>Among the nation's 50 largest hospitals, the percentage of unvaccinated health care workers appears to be even larger, about 1 in 3. Vaccination rates range from a high of 99% at Houston Methodist Hospital, which was the first in the nation to mandate the shots for its workers, to a low between 30% and 40% at some hospitals in Florida.
oh for fucks sake
You don’t have to go to college to be a nurse, even if it is extensive schooling. I know several nurses that are antivaxx and still give covid shots.
If Dunning Krueger was a profession, it would be nursing
Our university had dumbed down math and science courses for nursing. The professors hated teaching them and complained they often had to grade on a curve to have half the class pass the slower paced and minimal material course. I definitely look at nurses differently. They may be compassionate and willing to do a lot of work others won’t but….I don’t infer intelligence.
I’ve known some great nurses but they’ve largely been outliers and most quickly went into leadership positions because they broke the curve.
Dude, no offense to any one or anything, but in college the nursing students were like a living, smoking, trailer park. I was born in a trailer, so i know the scene lol.
Yeah nurses aren’t actually providers. They can’t diagnose or prescribe. Many people over estimate what a nurse can do.
Hell, even most doctors are trained for practically practicing medicine and aren't medical researchers. It's one thing to be trained in how to apply medical knowledge and keep up to date with current best practices. It's entirely another to actually set up scientific studies designed to minimize bias. For the most part, doctors don't need to be scientists, that's fine. They just need to keep up with the advances made by others. Unfortunately, there are a lot with unscientific beliefs with no desire to actually follow the knowledge gained by science. One of the outcomes of this pandemic should be to revoke the medical licenses of those that deny evolution, for instance. Improper use of antibiotics could lead to something far worse than Covid and there are plenty of doctors who can't even accept the basic biology of how that happens.
Fortunately the majority of physicians with that mindset are on their way out. [96% of physicians are fully vaccinated and of the 4% that aren’t, 45% plan to, or have received 1 of 2 doses](https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19)
They don’t even have to take gross anatomy. Their coursework is way too easy for what they do.
I have a cousin who is a nurse, and she speaks regularly about how stupid and uneducated her coworkers are and how they're drenched in conspiracy theory nonsense and the belief that covid vaccines "harm fertility" and other shit with no scientific basis whatsoever.
She can't wait for full FDA approval on the vaccines so hospitals and healthcare in general can simply require vaccination or you're fired.
We are so fucked.... Damn.
What is the death rate without medical care?
It’s less than 50%… I knew it was going to be lower than I thought but I didn’t think it would be that bad, wow
Can't wait til I get my nursing degree. I'm vaccinated and in need of work.
Well they're are a lot of nurses not working in direct patient care as well. I know everyone I work with in and out of the hospital jumped on it. Clinics not so sure.
Less than half, sadly. [SOURCE](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2021/06/28/covid19-vaccination-rates-are-poor-among-healthcare-workershow-can-we-do-better/amp/)
Meanwhile 96% of physicians are fully vaccinated.
Seems like that extra education makes a big fucking difference doesn’t it. Nurses are not doctors. This abysmal vaccination rate sadly doesn’t surprise me.
Need to meditate or something, screaming into your pillow every time someone somewhere is an idiot is not a healthy way to live.
We got like a month where everyone loved and adored us. Endless food and gifts and praise. Now? Ha! Now people are right back to berating and belittling us, trying to fight us, and being unreasonably demanding pricks.
After everything we have done and continue to do during this pandemic.... After everything we do every God damn day outside the pandemic... And this is how people treat us? GTFO.
The worst part? It's not just the public shitting all over us. Management and admin is equally as guilty as the public. We were told we'd get a "significant raise" after our hospital was a leader in covid preparedness and response. I got 67 cents.... Which isn't even a cost of living raise.
Fuck nursing. I'm so burnt out and sick of this profession.
A lot of nurses are the ones not getting vaccines though lol.
I think what's hardest for me to imagine is the large population of nurses and medical professionals who are refusing to get the vaccine AFTER experiencing what you've described above.
I have a friend that’s an anesthesiologist and she even talking about leaving to just teach. It was incredibly hard. I think intubating her fellow anesthesiologist did it for her.
I have a nurse friend I don't understand. We were hit bad here with hospitals overflowing, the sick were in ambulances waiting for a space in the hospital, the dead in refrigerated trailers, she'd post vids of her on snapchat begging and pleading for everyone to mask up and stay home. She lost some of her coworkers to covid, cried and pleaded again to everyone, she was fully masked and suited up to treat covid patients daily. She was tired and overworked. Things finally settled down and hospital staff were first to get the vaccine. I thought she'd be first to get in line. When I asked her what she felt as side effects of vaccine since I was hearing of them on tv...she told me,"I didn't get it. And won't be. COVID has been around for 30 years and all of a sudden there's a vaccine?" Then off and on I'd text her how she's been doing and same shit she'd give me. COVID is bullshit, her rights being violated, saying she never got covid (she did...she texted me when she was positive. Got it at work) and would send me some saynotojab site or some other weird conspiracy sites. I was saddened she went down that road. I always thought she was smart about keeping safe since she's in medical field most of her life. At her age if she gets delta...it won't be pretty I think. Then her snap also she'd post of all the trumptrains she'd go to...unmasked....right now she's taking a "vacation" to see a sick friend all across texas into New mexico...unmasked of course cause covid is bullshit. *facepalm*
My wife's best friend is a charge nurse, half her staff quit because they didn't want to get the vaccine and it was mandated. They said it made them uncomfortable because the actual science behind it didn't add up and they weren't comfortable with an experimental drug being forced. Her staff was an extreme case but she said every floor and department she knows lost at least a couple nurses.
God, Nurses are peak Dunning Krueger + anecdotal evidence.
All our nurse friends believe in crystals and herbal remedies and shit and talk shit about things that they don’t have the stats knowledge to comprehend.
Its because they deal with the public in their worst days. Patients tend to be "know it alls" about care and are often incredibly rude. This eventually skews nurses minds to think most people are full of shit too. Its a common problem with first responders too. Police eventually become assholes because they deal with the worst people on their worst days.
I think education is the only way out of this situation, all people working with the public should be required to take a short 3 unit course on viruses. I think it would largely would end the anti Vax bs
I work for a large privately owned international company. I can assure you they are tired of covid at all levels. They are tired of dealing with the effects on their workforce, and they are especially tired of covid's effects on the economy. I have no doubt it will be required for us when the FDA approves it. I am sure other large companies are ready for this pandemic to be over as well.
I know my F500 company will probably do this as well. Which I'm excited for because I want to see all the antivax union assholes cry about it.
>4 replies, all of which were deleted
Crybabies and not even brave enough to leave their comments up lmao
I didnt even get to see them. Was reading an AskReddit thread about the uber rich.
My company did Work from home mandate super early…like maybe late Feb once the first cases popped up in our area. our CEO flat out told us “as much as we deeply care about your health, we can’t sustain loosing large portions of entire departments all at once and still stay in business. This protects you and us.” The honesty was refreshing.
He just assumed we’d be over it in a few months. Oh well
TBF, it could have, but we screwed the pooch.
I’m tired of people bangin dogs, man.
My company just announced today a $500 bonus to anyone who's vaxxed. It's already happening
Lol. Most places will just say, "Get the vaccine or you're fired" once it's fully FDA approved.
I'm amazed that anyone is offering financial incentives.
The carrots didn’t work, start deploying the sticks. Wrap the sticks with barbed wire.
Well shit I hope my company does something like that.
My company gave us an extra vacation day. It was awesome.
E: This is meant to be a true vacation day and not overlap with vaccine recovery time, for which we have sick days.
They have said that vaccine safety has already been determined. All that remains thats being studied for full approval is shelf life
I read somewhere that based on when Pfizer formally applied for full authorization, ETA Jan or Feb ‘22.
No that's simply the deadline. It will be done sooner than that. End of august or September at the latest is my best guess. Biden has also said end of august... And unlike the last guy, i trust him.
I read an article by the FDA that has a September of this year estimate
Edit: my bad I musta misread. I'm currently seeing Jan 22 as well
I just found an article estimating August or September
So I'm not going crazy?
[August](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fda-working-quickly-review-full-approval-vaccines/story?id=79073622) to [mid-September](https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/16/health/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-fda-priority-review/index.html)
edit: FDA just said they're going all hands on deck and pulling people off other projects, etc. till it's done. I guess it will be August afterall.
About ten years ago I worked for Raytheon at McMurdo Station in Antarctica. Flu used to really screw that place up since everyone lived in pretty close quarters and a big flu outbreak would make it hard to provide basic services. We had all already gone through a pretty intense medical eval and I'd even had my wisdom teeth all removed to meet their requirements. When we did our orientation in Colorado they made an announcement that the day before they had changed their medical policy to require us all to get flu shots. Turns out it was cheaper to admin them all than to have sick people not working. They opened up the door to the auditorium and led everyone to a room next door to get the shot. You could opt-out, but they'd just cancel your contract and fly you home. I didn't see a single person opt-out and we didn't have a flu outbreak that year.
> You could opt-out, but they'd just cancel your contract and fly you home
Some would call this "not really freedom of choice"
I would call it "freedom of choice, but no _freedom from the consequences_ of your choice".
Did you just make up something that someone \*might\* say just so you could give your hypothetical retort?
wisdom teeth is not a minor procedure. you had to get those out in order to work? dafuq?
It has to do more with working in Antarctica. The company is basically trying to ensure that nobody would ever be there need to have their wisdom teeth removed, since no one had any. I think I've read about extreme remote work places that they would need to remove your appendix just to not have someone potentially die if their appendix were to rupture.
If they become impacted you're in immense pain and need surgery. Why risk that happening in a remote, hard to reach place when it can be done ahead of time with ample care available?
Yes, I think you're right.
I also think you're going to see it sooner with Delta on the rise... like they're doing it in NY, CA ~~and veterans affairs~~. That they'll require you to get vaccinated OR get a weekly negative test.
[California And NYC Public Employees, As Well As VA Health Workers, Have New Vaccine Mandates](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nicolefallert/covid-vaccine-requirements-california-new-york-veterans)
Edit: Looks like Veterans Affairs is requiring they get vaccinated without an alternative option
Amen! This is how it should be and I hope that once FDA approval happens it’s required for sending kids to schools, summer camps, overseas etc. I’ve been getting vaccinated since I was a kid and i’m sure 90% of others have too. Vaccines should’ve never gotten political but of course this is the America we live in now sadly…Get vaccinated, it’s free protection for you and your loved ones.
I can’t see large employers allowing you to be on their insurance benefit if you’re unvaccinated. Hospital stays are mid to high 6 figures
Yep, this is what I’m expecting. Insurance rates will go up for 2022 and will be “discounted” back to 2021 rates if you are vaccinated. The almighty dollar is extremely motivating.
2021 rates + 25%
Yup. Qualifying for a company provided benefit isn’t exactly a civil right.
As a small business we are going to require all future employees to be vaccinated (unless they have medical/religious exemption) and the one current unvaccinated employee we have will have to take weekly covid tests until they do get vaccinated or this goes away.
What religions don't allow vaccination?
Church of Christ, Scientist aka Christian Scientists for one, ironically
Religions and churchs that include science in their name often are named as accurately as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.
The Christian Scientists founder Mary Baker Eddy, asked Christian Scientists not to “quarrel” with society over the issue of vaccination. Also according to official stance where vaccination is required, they obey the law’s requirement.
As an official of the denomination put it back then, Christian Scientists recognize the need “to be careful in respect to the spreading of disease,”
So some of these Christian scientist that refuse are violating their tenants laid down by the founder and other leaders
The religious exemption forms are an absolute joke but you don’t name the religion you practice. It’s a paper with some prepared statement saying you’re aware of the risks of declining vaccination due to your religious beliefs that you sign and date at the bottom.
I have no idea but when I looked up laws about requiring vaccinations it said the only two exemptions were religious and medical
And there is where we find the loophole that these anti-vaxxers will use to weasel into getting out of it.
They will claim that it is either medical (highly likely not) or against their religion (the religion of Trumpism, Conservatism, or whatever) and there will be nothing that can be done. We will continue to proliferate this virus, allowing it to mutate and reduce the population of the world bit by bit.
I’m all for individual freedoms, but there comes a time when the needs of the many outweigh the slights of the few.
I don’t think a single religion does have a reason not to get vaccinated , but in the case of medical they would need a legitimate doctors note. If they don’t want to provide one then they are SoL
I actually know a couple people with allergies so severe they can’t get the vaccine. They’d be the first to provide proof that they can’t get it.
Those that would get the vaccines but cannot due to actual medical reasons are the ones I truly worry about the most.
I hope the couple of people you know are able to remain as healthy as possible. From what little you have said about them they are already more respectable than the anti-vaxxers.
As for the religious aspect, I can only think of Mennonites, Amish, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and maybe some orthodox religions that would claim it as against their beliefs. Since religion is not an area that can really be asked about in work places, that would be the hardest to enforce the truth.
Edit: Added more.
Mennonite and Amish generally aren't against vaccinations for religious reasons. However, there's probably a higher proportion of Trumpians in Mennonite circles because they're conservatives.
Afaik JWs are any vax, but I hope they make an exception.
It’s a mom and daughter (genetic) and I’ve only seen the mom once since this pandemic started. Her daughter I’ve seen more but she’s also fairly young and is constantly masked.
As far as I know jehovahs witnesses aren’t anti vax…but it depends on the vaccine form (no blood, etc), and may be interpreted differently by different groups I guess.
Source: wife grew up Jehovah’s Witness and is persona non grata as she left after going through the ceremony to become one as a teenager….so technically no one who is a Jehovah’s Witness is meant to even acknowledge she exists now. (Her parents are still technically Jehovah’s Witnesses but realised it was a pretty stupid thing when they couldn’t see any of their three kids because they all left….now they live on the same block of us…yay).
She had her vaccines as a kid.
To be fair, true medical exemptions are actually quite rare. The main ones are serious allergic reactions. People often talk about individuals who are getting cancer treatment, or with immunocompromise, but they are actually encouraged to get vaccinated. They very likely will have a weak immune response though.
Going from a foggy memory and too lazy to google, but it's one of those kookier religions and iirc it's live weakened virus vaccines that gets their knickers in a bunch because umm something to do with injecting something alive? idk what their butt plug is. they should not have a problem with Mr. Na.
> And there is where we find the loophole that these anti-vaxxers will use to weasel into getting out of it.
Yup. We were told that the anti-vaxxers in our federal building can get "regular COVID testing or religious exemptions or follow "mitigation" protocol.
Whatever that means. Probably just going to be a "6ft reminder" and some taped off areas. The fucking people in charge that would enforce this are anti-vaxxers who have had multiple bouts of COVID and abuse the close-contact options to get free weeks of vacation. Just like they were all magically vaccinated when the "Vaccinated people don't need to wear a mask" thing came out.
No loopholes. Get vaxxed or you shouldn't be able to rejoin society until this is gone.
My sisters company, large company, I don’t want to say the name , but they just made a requirement for employment :)
Is it only for new employees?
Good. Sick of this shit. FAFO!
This is one of the reasons it’s frustrating that they’re taking so long to approve Pfizer. Everybody knows they’re going to. It’s a foregone conclusion. But we are slaves to the process to “ensure public confidence” when the unvaccinated already have lost confidence. So we’ll just let thousands of people die instead and approve Pfizer in October.
I do think that while some businesses will mandate the vaccine, it won’t be as broad as perhaps you are thinking.
To be fair, the normal process can take years. For it to "only" take about a year for full approval is still moving at breakneck speed
[Federal law doesn’t prohibit Covid-19 vaccine requirements, Justice Department says](https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/26/politics/doj-covid-19-vaccine-requirements-olc-opinion/index.html) - CNN
They can mandate it right now, they don't have to wait for FDA approval.
Most businesses aren't only worried about federal law, but state law, particularly civil liability. They're worried about being sued if someone takes the vaccine and gets sick, now they have to defend against the allegation that the vaccine caused the harm without support from the FDA giving it full approval. Or alternatively, getting sued for constructive dismissal for imposing an "unjustified" or "dangerous" new employment requirement
You do how these types of systems work?
I work as a Quality Engineer and rushing these types of things to just push things out the door is when you have problems. Let the professionals in charge of validating and approving do their work without the pressure from outside influence or agencies. You get one shot at getting something like this right and a million to mess something up and ruin public confidence in the medical approval systems in this country.
If you think people who are reluctant on vaccines are bad now wait till something gets messed up in an approval and you end up with a bigger mess of a situation to deal with.
> You get one shot at getting something like this right
Pfizer is two shots.
Damnit I’m usually the sarcastic one but I gotta pat your back for that comment lol. Shut up and take my award my friend!
I mean... Half the country is already vaccinated. The problem would already be done.
Only for half the country. If there was a serious risk of the vaccine that they would detect by now it doesn't make sense to not approve it. Or approve it for everyone "except people with certain conditions that had worse outcomes".
Let's be clear - thousands of people who will die while having full, unfettered access to the free vaccines that prevent sickness and death.
I did hear an argument opposing waiting for some archaic process, "could you imagine if it came out and they didn't fucking approve it?" Half of America is already vaccinated, that would be a major scandal, as opposed to approving something that already has more field testing than nearly any medication approved.
The chance of them not approving it is 0. This is scientific theater and thousands will die needlessly in the meantime.
Yeah that's my point lol.
If they don’t do it then it just helps convince people on the fence to NOT get the vaccine.
Not everyone in other 51% of the American population is a staunch anti-vaxxer. Most are just scared of what could go wrong, and the anti-vaxxers play on that fear like orchestra conductors.
So it’s sort of a do it right and potentially save millions of lives as opposed to losing thousands for the moment.
It sucks, but that’s the way it is in this world where social media is taken as the source of truth for way too many people.
Do you mean the other 43.57% of the population?
Note: it's estimated that only about [5 million](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/26/fda-asks-pfizer-moderna-test-their-vaccines-more-children-under-12-help-rule-out-safety-issues/) people are *actually* waiting for approval, though there are an estimated 20 million who will have to get it as required by work/school/military once approved in [August](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fda-working-quickly-review-full-approval-vaccines/story?id=79073622) or [September](https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/16/health/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-fda-priority-review/index.html)
edit: FDA just said they're going all hands on deck and pulling people off other projects, etc. till it's done. I guess it will be August afterall.
None of those people know what “doing it right” is. I’m not sure the scientists even know what doing it right is given the stakes.
> This is one of the reasons it’s frustrating that they’re taking so long to approve Pfizer. Everybody knows they’re going to. It’s a foregone conclusion.
But what will happen then to those that got Moderna or J&J?
They’ll continue to not die. I don’t understand the question.
I understand that we need to wait for it to go through proper channels so it has legal precedent and can withstand public scrutiny. However, it’s also annoying because we know these dumb fucks in our society will give it their all to circumvent vaccination regardless. They already have their marching orders from the qult.
If you can remember back in 2019 unemployment was at the lowest in decades, employment at all time highs. Many companies had a very hard time retaining workers in in demand professions.
While most employers will probably want a vaccinated workforce, it is unlikely that placing new medical demands on workers will make the workplace more attractive or in anyway discourage employee turnover.
Nursing is a prime example. Many areas are already understaffed and have burnt out staff considering career changes. If vaccines are mandated X% will leave and Y% of the remaining staff will demand pay increases to stay.
Unless a company is offering above market pay or has specific legal obligations that require vaccination against COVID, they will simply lose some number of their skilled workers, incur greater staffing costs, all for marginal benefit.
The “specific legal requirement” is the OSH act. They’re required to provide a safe work environment.
Please mandate for everyone so I can send my kids to school without fearing what’s happening to kids in Texas
Even this would be just federal. Your schools are probably state employees. And the other kids are a bigger concern than the teachers usually.
by far my favorite part is it took a rash of breakthrough infections in the whitehouse and high up in congress to get them to go "hmmm seems bad" and change cdc guidelines. didn't matter how many meat packing plant worker, nurse, bus driver, cook, etc died, it literally needed to happen to them before they would act
Do the poors even have feelings? I don’t think so either?
Preventative healthcare? What’s that? Feeling cute, might go get a 5/6-figure COVID hospitalization later idk.
I can hardly get my patients to eat better to improve their future selves, let alone get a damn shot to prevent death, and it’s mind-boggling.
So much of the government response throughout the pandemic seems reactive rather than proactive. Cases were already starting to climb a few weeks ago.
I agree but I think it goes back to the idea that we can barely get people to comply when things are genuinely bad. How are we going to get them to change behaviors when all we have is a projection of how bad things could be?
It seems like the only thing I’ve seen change the average person’s behaviors through this thing is 1) seeing a close loved one become seriously ill or die from Covid or 2) mandates (eg no mask no service).
I think public health officials know exactly when and how these things should be put in place, but they’re dealing with a really fragile, fractured public. It’s so messed up and frustrating.
Federal employee here. It's been voluntary in our department since February and we've reached a depressingly low number of fully vaxxed. And it's for all of the usual asinine reasons.
Thing is, there will not be one unvaxxed person that quits when it's mandated. Although we've jokingly hoped that they will put their money where their mouth is and stick to their convictions, they won't. It's fucking infuriating.
I would be so happy if all the antivax people actually quit. They are so toxic about it. Once they got rid of masking for unvaccinated people they have not been wearing them even though they are supposed to.
They run around flaunting it while sarcastically saying they are "vaccinated" now.
Meanwhile everyone else just thinks they are complete morons.
Facts. I’d rather work short staffed with people I trust and that have mutual respect then the ones that only think of themselves
I think I may be one of the few pro-vaccine VA RNs who isn't thrilled about this new mandate. It's been a rough 18 months at my facility and there's been some really questionable decision-making by local leadership, in response to both COVID itself and COVID's ripple effects. And the acuity has only gotten worse. We're significantly short-staffed, yet expected to juggle heavier workloads with sicker patients. It scares me so much, both for our nursing staff's safety and our patients' safety.
From my knowledge, we have a solid vaccination rate amongst RNs. Not so much with CNAs :( We used to regularly have 3-4 aides on the floor prior to COVID... now we get 2 aides IF we're lucky. They're a huge part of patient care. And obviously it'd piss me off to see if any of them quit because of this new mandate, but fuck, we need the hands.
I'm all about the vaccine mandate. But I wish Biden and/or local VA leaders would address the staffing shortages all throughout the country first. And THEN implement the mandate. Our staff has already been stretched so thin.
Side note - I'd actually be interested to see if the vaccination rate among nursing professions varies greatly at all throughout different parts of the country.
That’s because they are.
I work at the VA and a fair chunk of my department isn't vaxxed and they seem to be operating on the notion that if they stay unvaxxed they'll be able to pick and choose work. "Exposing myself to covid risk" comes up the minute they don't like their task.
Anti-vaxxers tend to have other characteristics that make them less attractive (to put it mildly) as fellow employees, even if we somehow twist their hands into taking the vaccine. Selfishness, false sense of freedom without a sense of responsibility to society, absence of empathy, not community-minded (teamwork), distrust of expertise, inability to logically think, inability to follow science, stubborn even in the face of refuting evidence, defensive when challenged, incoherent communication... Do you really want such employees for your business/organization/government department?
Hell no I don't want them! But I'm not in any position to do anything about it.
I’m a federal employee and myself and my team at my location are all vaccinated. At other locations like mine they are at around 40%. This is long overdue.
Yep. Biden can force 9 million people to be vaccinated (not sure what the current percent is). As that is the total employee number for the executive branch
To be clear, he can't force anyone to get vaccinated. He can, however, give them an ultimatum between vaccination and their job.
I understood the nuance. I'm simply of the opinion that few will resign. And that as more employees have to get vaccinated, more companies will begin requiring it.
Previously I would agree with you - because it seems like everyone has conviction until it affects their pocketbook. But given the extreme radicalization that has taken place (in the United States in particular) these past few years, I'm not so sure any more. We might end up with a disturbingly large percentage that do, in fact, choose to leave their government job over this issue, consequences be damned.
Good riddance. In the main, in my office, those of a certain ideology, for some reason, tend to be unmotivated, self-serving, and unproductive. Let them walk. I’d rather have a motivated blank file that I can train properly.
I highly doubt that any anti-vaxxers will be missed.
Yes and no. I'm an air traffic controller at a facility that is already understaffed. About 25% of the facility is not vaccinated and I would guess about half of my unvaccinated coworkers would quit/retire instead of getting the vaccine. My facility would be able to survive that many people quiting, everyone would just have mandatory 60 hour work weeks, but I know there are some facilities out there that would not have the staffing to continue with business as usual.
You underestimate how much crazy intelligent correlates with regular crazy.
One of the smartest people I know is anti-vax and has a horde of unvaccinated kids.
He just has a few screws loose and falls for pretty much any conspiracy theory he stumbles on.
I get what you're saying, but I'd argue that being anti-vax means they are either quite stupid or actually evil, especially considering they are putting their own children at risk. Which one depends on their reasoning.
"Oh no, we lost all the people who are dangerously susceptible to misinformation. I hope we don't lose the people dangerously susceptible to bribery next!"
I think that's where I'm still unsteady. I got the vaccine and think everyone should. However, at the same time, forcing someone to choose between subjecting their body to something they don't want or losing their job seems really dystopian to me. In the U.S., if you lose your job your losing health benefits, pension, etc. It's difficult for people to find something as good as these federal jobs a lot of the time.
I don't want a precedent to be set where we invade people's personal liberties. At the same time, the collective liberties of our society outweigh a lot of things.
It's a hard decision to make. I can't think of one that doesn't have bad sides. So this plan is probably for the best. But still..
I am on completely the same page as you. I am fully vaccinated, although my employer has no stance on it one way or the other (perhaps I'm lucky, I suppose). But I do worry that it could be a slippery slope.
(9mil/330mil)*100=2.7% of all US population.
I rounded because I can’t be bothered to google US total population, but this is a good enough estimator.
Edit: Redid the math because I remembered US pop. was higher than I originally remembered.
Realistically \~202 million people are over 18 and would only really be counted here
and only about 60% of the population is willing/able to work so \~197 million
so really 4.6%
Gotta be honest I have no idea what we're doing here, i just like numbers
Information can be skewed so easily; just pick whichever dada set helps you the most.
I don’t know.
What about the [2016 Dada life set](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME4sx9UEJPM)?
Jokes aside, it’s so easy to manipulate statistics, and so hard to spot them if you’re not trained or in the know.
I believe there is a quote, something about statistics don’t lie, but it is easy to make them say what you want. I can’t remember the actual one, but basically while the underlying stats may be true, they can be cherry picked and skewed to represent whatever you want.
Not just that but you have to be very very careful with drawing causation and correlation from data sets. Statistics often don’t paint the whole picture. Think graphs that show X minority has very high poverty rates. That stat may be true, but if you’re on a racist website, the conclusion they’re hoping you draw is going to be very far removed from the reality of *why* that stay is so.
I’m often reminded of xkcd’s [heatmap](https://xkcd.com/1138/).
If you saw a stat that the highest concentration of furries and Martha Stewart readers live in the same areas, you might immediately wonder “why, that’s strange… wonder why?”
>t want to say the name , but they just made a requirement for employment :)
Assuming half the population is vaccinated that number is really about \~1.5%
A federal work order goes way beyond that. If they require vaccination to work in a federal building, for example, you're lumping in millions of contractors as well. My former coworkers (contractors) have all been put on notice to expect this within the next couple of months.
Is that the decision? Either vaccination or job? Just seems like they wouldn't be able to force it. Not that I'm against it; I just know that the agency I had worked for had a hard enough time firing people.
> Biden can force 9 million people to be vaccinated (not sure what the current percent is). As that is the total employee number for the executive branch
I'm curious where you got your numbers from. That seemed high. Most recent numbers that I could find:
* 2014 - 2.08M [(SOURCE)](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-documentation/federal-employment-reports/historical-tables/executive-branch-civilian-employment-since-1940/)
* 2017 - 1.87M [(SOURCE)](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-documentation/federal-employment-reports/reports-publications/federal-civilian-employment/)
* 2020 - 2.18M [(SOURCE)](https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43590.pdf)
The last number contradicts the prior OPM sources (slightly), showing 2.05M in 2014, and 2.09M in 2017. But it looks like all estimates are in the ballpark of 2M.
EDIT - Per page 9 of the last source, it's 4.25M if you add all executive branch civilians, the postal service, the military (active, reserve, and civilian), the legislative branch, and the judicial branch. So even THAT doesn't bring us to 9M. And you clearly said executive branch only.
Hmmm... Maybe I misremembered the CNN video where he said Biden should do this last week. I'll go find it
Edit: well that was quick to find lol. He did say 9 million, but says federal employees. I had assumed it only applies to executive branch employees, since I wouldn't think he could require anyone else to.
It includes contractors. That's how they're getting to 9M.
Good. Despite the fact that unvaccinated personal were supposed to remain mask, no one did. I’m not sure how they even get to keep their security clearances if t they’re willing to lie about stuff like that.
What they're doing with State employees in California is requiring vaccine proof OR weekly (or twice weekly) covid testing. Providing that option takes HIPAA into account and bypasses full FDA approval.
Just FYI: HIPAA only applies to healthcare workers sharing your health info with others. Restrictions on employers asking for health information falls under the ADA.
That's exactly what Biden will announce, according to CNN:
> President Joe Biden will announce on Thursday a requirement that all federal employees and contractors be vaccinated against Covid-19, or be required to submit to regular testing and mitigation requirements, according to a source with direct knowledge of the matter.
Would that include the entire military too?
Military is expected to mandate it shorty
No that is up to the department of defense or he is leaving it up to them.
Federal employee here... I hope this happens we are about 50% vaccinated at my location, both my husband and I work there. Right now my husband is battling stage three cancer and has multiple blood transfusions, I asked if I could work in a smaller group of vaccinated partners and management said yes. Then along came this antivaxxer who filed a grievance against me cause he had to do a simpler job for the day. Basically had a day off. Yeah enforce it I can't wait to see some idiots go.
I hope after this, they also require it of all companies bidding for federal contracts.
Based. I hope they require it on flights soon and any area they have power over.
You would think the FDA could put in just a few hours of overtime to work towards full approval so employers could feel strengthened in mandating them. Any day now guys!
Hope they require it to pass through a TSA security checkpoint screening.
Honestly this would be such a large motivator for some hesitant people. Just say that proof of vaccination lets you go through security normally, and without it you have to take a swabbed fast test and wait an hour. You want to fly without the vaccine? Better get there hours early. People will make the choice at that point.
And only have one person administering the tests… and they take LOTS of breaks….
Those who can’t get vaccinated just can’t fly anymore?
Medical exemption and/or recent covid test results?
That’s what’s required where I am.
- Proof of vaccination (non-nationals)
- Recent negative PCR test (everyone)
Unvaxxed nationals have to quarantine (at their expense) for 2 weeks upon arrival.
Every anti Vaxer asks this as of their lifestyle choice is now equal to a disability.
Yeah there would be obvious ways to verify legit medical exceptions.
The lack of approval isn't for a lack of man hours. It's because there is not enough safety data yet. It takes time. You can't know what effects will occur in the future. You just have to wait.
Agreed, but with an even more aggressive approach. All flights, theme parks, concerts, and essentially every large gathering should require proof of vaccination or medical/religious exemption.
Don't like it? too bad you'll get left behind.
Only medical exemptions should be accepted.
Employers have a duty to protect workers from those who are infectious. They can either get vaccinated or provide negative tests they pay for and arrange every 72 hours to prove they are safe to be in the work place. There is your reasonable accommodation.
I wonder what percentage of federal employees aren't vaccinated and how much this will increase our overall vaccination rate.
My hubby is a mailman... considered a federal employee. They were given paid time to get the shot, and paid time to be home if any physical affects. Most only took a day or two for soar arm from shots. Not sure how other parts work, but USPS stepped up for employees...
Which is nice since pandemic took away places to eat... or restrooms to use during pandemic. Mailpersons need access to bathrooms, and it has already been a problem before covid hit. I still use ziplocks to freeze water, make big blocks of ice, to put in water cooler to help with that issue (Sacramento areas are hot 🔥🥵)
> Mailpersons need access to bathrooms, and it has already been a problem before covid hit. I still use ziplocks to freeze water, make big blocks of ice, to put in water cooler to help with that issue
I'm a bit of an idiot, but can you explain this? how do blocks of ice help with postmen needing to use the bathroom?
I hope he does it. This is also something state governors should consider.
Arkansas governor signed a bill saying they would never require state workers to get vaccinated. I wonder if they will still want to die on that hill.
Someone is absolutely going to die on this hill and take it to the Supreme Court. Under normal circumstances I'd say that's a valid check on executive power but I don't have a ton of faith in certain justices to remain non-partisan or take a nuanced approach to the situation.
Supreme Court already ruled on the topic. Government can do what it wasn’t to protect stupid people from themselves when it comes to a pandemic. They have 2-3 rulings actually.
They have one of the lowest death rates of any state
you wanna purge out the conspiracy theorists and the nutjobs? Do it.
Those who are proCovid shouldn't be working on Gov.
Let's stop "considering" things and actually fucking do something.
We need to consider creating a subcommittee to investigate the potential outcomes of fucking doing something.
we'll vote on 'considering it' in 6 months
Well that's one way to get the rats off the ship.
I simply don’t care anymore