By - SURTUPPETS
I don't think anyone would argue that confident Baker is 10x better than not confident Baker.
It's crazy watching this tape. He actually came off his first read multiple times successfully, navigated the pocket well. I know we're all recency biased, but he had all the hallmarks coming into this season of actual, legitimate growth. 2021 was a tragedy in more ways than just our record being bad. I truly hope it didn't break his ability to continue that growth where it left off or he's as good as done in the league.
Baker has shown the ability to do everything he is criticized for IMHO.
He just hasn't done those things consistently in any remotely encouraging way.
I'd love nothing more than to see him get back on track and keep making progress, but he was really broken at the end of the year, mentally more so than physically.
Easy to lose confidence when you have one arm and it's hard to make the kind of laser passes needed.
Exactly, once baker lost confidence in his arm because of the injury, he changed his Mechanics to try and throw like he use to. It threw off his entire lower body. Making him even more inaccurate. Once that happen, he didn’t trust his ability to throw it, so he then started to 2nd guess on throws he could make, leading to him greatly holding onto the ball and just accepting sacks. When he did decide to pull the trigger it was because he thought he had to make this throw instead of being able to make this throw and started to make poor decisions with the ball
He couldn’t grip it and rip it anymore. Best example was the Steelers came when he pumped fake like 4x on a single play. Baker has never played like that before. Also doesn’t help that his WRs never made a play for him. If the pass wasn’t literally in their catch pocket, they weren’t going to come down with it. So add even more pressure. Just imagine what Burrow’s completion % would be if Higgins and Chase weren’t monsters at going up and attacking passes and coming down with them. Watch the KC Cincy game and that game winning drive about 2-3 of those big pass plays they hit on that drive, no WR on the browns is capable of making those plays. It’s why I really want Burks from Arky
I’m hoping for Garret Wilson or Jahan Dotson personally, but that’s also just because I’ve watched them play the most so I know how good they are
Dotson is a 2nd rd WR. Burks is one hell of a playmaker for being 6’3 220. He makes the catches vs the Steelers that Jarvis and OBJ couldn’t make. I would be happy with Garrett as Well
Or how many straight drops came off of perfectly placed throws anyway.
This is such a good description of the situation. It's far too nuanced for the average browns fan to grasp unfortunately. They just see Baker throw a pick and say he's shit, when in reality he is so far removed from what he normally is.
so many of his passes that were intercepted came in situations where he was hurried. he would fall away from his throw in order to get the ball over a linemans head and hands
see the GB pick when Hance at RT is blown off the ball and right into Baker
Baker also has a tendency to get too far back in the pocket, probably a vision thing, but that invites pressure off his tackles
not just a lack of confidence physically, a lack of confidence when anyone but conklin is at rt
Baker’s ankle injury this year also played a factor in all this. He extended plays last year by rolling out. This year he wasn’t able to roll out of the pocket and find his targets like last year.
Expect Stefanski to draw up a TON of play action and roll outs for Baker to get him back to ballin out.
Just to clarify because I agree, it’s a foot injury, not an ankle injury.
A foot injury is honestly worse. An ankle injury you can still slap a brace on it and run even with some pain, a lot of us have for various sports in our lives.
Having had foot issues myself, there’s nothing you can do at all. They just fucking hurt
Good clarification, it was a foot injury. And they do indeed suck.
You just described every qb in the NFL.
Pressure leads to poor qb play.
check out the passer ratings at pff. Mahommes, Wilson, and Murray historically have done very well against the blitz. QB ratings above 120 for all of them.
I think Baker ranked below 25th place somewhere out of the 32+ QBs graded
Maybe this is a nitpick, but isn't there a difference between "under pressure" and "against the blitz"?
sure thing. couldnt find it in pff. but stat muse has the top 25 qbs under pressure with qbr between 111.9 and 85.9. baker must be lower than 85.9 because i dont see him in this chart
A LOT goes into success against pressure and blitz. solid RT , health, playcalling certainly all contribute.
You see Murray throw the weeden pick in the playoffs? I get that Mahomes and Rodgers are great against pressure, I'm just saying most QBs (all except a few god tier QBs) struggle against Pressure. Baker makes it even worse on himself with his inability to read a defense, poor technique discipline which leads to holding onto the ball too long, drifting in the pocket, getting too deep in his drops... aka inviting pressure. The way for Baker to improve is through the mental side + working on improving his lower body mechanics.
i think you and i are describing different sides of the same apple. i agree with everything you said
my ONLY reservation is size and playcalling. i dont know if Baker will ever be able to keep clean mechanics in a pocket because of vision. we saw a lot of batted balls this year and i think that is contributing to his tendency to fall back out of his throws and not follow through.
to someones earlier point: we can make him successful if we let him adlib outside a pocket. so more boots for sure
This was Baker's first yr of high number of batted passes though. I agree with you wrt to mechanic in a crowded pocket - he's given us 4 yrs of proving he's not capable of it. His words in the media regarding off season coaching doesn't give me hope either.
To your point regarding adlibing outside of structure - my concern with this is outside of his rookie yr (and really just his first 7 or so starts as a rookie) he's been absolutely brutal outside of structure and more concerning brutal when his first read isn't open. Not opposed to more boots, but until he can win from the pocket I don't see a top half of the league starting QB.
I think it has more to do with the injuries piling up and affecting his mechanics. When he can set his feet, point his shoulder, and drove the ball he has a laser rocket arm. But the shoulder and foot injuries threw all that off and made him a lot less accurate.
Seeing Hunt in the backfield... Healthy O line.... Damn what rotten luck did we have boys
I was gonna say, my main takeaway from this is that Baker's injury might not even have been the most impactful on his success. Conklin going down may have been bigger. Look at how long those pockets are staying clean *consistently* with him in there
Its all the things that add up, people tend to forget that
People WANT to forget that, because it helps with their narrative of shitting on the team and QB.
Or maybe a decent QB doesn’t need everything around him absolutely perfect to perform.
While the Browns were severely hurt by the loss of Conklin, ESPN still had Cleveland as a top 10 pass block win rate (4th). PFF had them ranked 8th because Hance was god awful in pass protection. A clean pocket, almost any QB can survive. Baker needs to learn how to play in a slightly muddy pocket because our OL isn’t gonna be world class 100% of the time as this year reminded us
We had 3/5 starters (sometimes fewer) 60% of the time. Those grades are worthless if everyone's holding their block but one guy is getting killed every single time. A good overall offensive line is better than having a few studs and a few guys who are worthless. The offensive line argument is not as convincing as it was last year. Forget the stats. what did you see once Conklin went down?
A OL that wasnt as good without Conklin but was still better than half the OLs in the NFL
Throughout the season we used 7 different line combinations. that was putrid. And once again, the PFF stats are PFF stats, but the second half of the year I did not see anything resembling a decent offensive line. Jedrick wills (admittedly playing injured) was essentially on ice skates all season.
ESPN and PFF take that into account. Wills Jr actually is a Pro Bowl alternate which is voted on by fans, players and coaches so there is some credit to that.
Like I said, this OL cannot be world class 100% of the time. More active QBs in the NFL have done more than Baker with less help from the OL.
I am not saying the injured OL was world class but they were serviceable. Baker needs to learn to play with that.
Wait, Wills is a pro bowl alternate? Wtf?How did that happen?
Like even fully healthy, he's good, but would i consider him a top 5 or 6 LT? Probably not. And this season he was probably bottom half
How about them 9 sacks lol
9 sacks are more of a QB stat than OL stat. For OL you want to look at pressure rate
I feel like the pressure rate in that second Steelers game was right around 100%
How good your LT is doesn’t really matter when your RT is getting manhandled by Watt every play. Baker isn’t a particularly mobile QB, especially after injury. Play design and TE or RB help are necessary in these circumstances. You can’t just expect your QB to evade the rusher that wasn’t blocked just because the rest of the line is doing really well. O Line is kind of like a chain and a really weak link can sort of nullify the strength of the rest.
Watt got chipped on over half of the offensive plays which I agree isn’t enough.
That doesn’t change what I said. This OL will not be world class 100% of the time and Baker needs to learn to play with a serviceable line which he got because of injuries. You don’t find it weird Myles Garrett couldn’t get to Big Ben in the second game even though Garrett was winning against the OL all game?
Big Ben had a worse rating than Baker that game, so if your argument is that Baker needs to play *worse* to evade sacks I don’t think I agree.
Edit: and in defense of Stefanski, the o line also really loved to rack up key penalties that worked against the play action. Too many 3rd and manageable became a pass from the gun, which is just about the worst situation for our offense to be in. If the defense knows it’s a pass while Baker is hurt, Hance is at RT, and our WR1 is playing for the Rams, we are going to have a bad time.
Woosh. My point is Big Ben negated Garrett because he got rid of the ball so quickly. It’s one of the ways a QB can overcome an injured OL. Big Bens issue is he was throwing into the best secondary in the NFL. Baker wasnt
Which is the ‘play design’ portion of my comment. WOOOOSH!
Also, Big Ben is like half a foot taller than Baker. Quick throws over the line to slant routes are a lot easier for him.
No it’s not. The throws were there but baker hesitated. I am believing it’s because of his injury. Baker is know to hold onto the ball too long through 3 different offenses now and even in college. This isn’t new
The throws were not consistently there. He missed some, but there was plenty of bad play calling or an inability for receivers to create separation. Quick throws over the middle also aren’t the only way to handle the problem. There was a reluctance to make use of play action or boot (which is probably due to injury, I’m not sure baker could do a bootleg to the left away from the RT with the injury/harness) for a lot of the season despite its success last season.
>Big Ben had a worse rating than Baker that game, so if your argument is that Baker needs to play worse to evade sacks I don’t think I agree.
Baker had a PR of 53 and Ben had a PR of 56. Baker also got sacked seven more times for 30 more yards, and passer rating doesn't even account for sacks. Statiscally, sacks are the second biggest drive killers next to turnovers. Baker had the worse game by far.
You’re a clown if you really think Baker had a worse game ‘by far’.
Edit: oh, you’re an Ohio State fan. Pull the flag out of your ass where Baker planted it.
If two guys have a similar QB rating and one gets sacked seven more times, please explain how he didn't have the worse game. And please come up with something that isn't an ad hominem attack. I know it's a popular opinion on this sub but I promise you no OSU fans who actually went there have thought about the flag plant in years.
Truth be told, hardly anyone within the program actually cared that much either. It was an anger at themselves for being man-handeled which allowed it to happen sort of thing. Bosa doing it in the San Fran game is really just his kind of troll personality showing through lol.
I honestly don't know why it was even huge news when it happened. I didn't give a shit about the flag plant, I just wanted to find out what was wrong with the team and if they could get better.
It's his injuries, it's Conklin and Wills being hurt for so much of the year, it's our WR situation being a dumpster fire, and it's questionable play calling.
There's every reason to think that Baker's awful 2021 season (which was his first in the NFL where he wasn't learning a new offensive system under a new coach, by the way) was due to circumstance, and yet a vocal minority of fans want to pretend like none of that matters and 2021 is just proof that Baker sucks and has always sucked.
Rotten luck, and not just with injuries. I’ve made this comment more than once in this sub, but we had a bunch of pure shit happen to us this season that was the difference in us being a playoff team and not being a playoff team. If even half of the shit that went wrong would have gone the other way, we wouldn’t even be having this “is Baker the guy” discussion, we’d be saying “can’t wait til Baker is healthy”. He played poorly this year, but the rest of the team was so good it shouldn’t have mattered.
Man that first drive in the KC game was something special. After watching the 1:00 games that game started and even on TV you could just tell it had a different vibe to it. The Browns converted two 4th downs and a 2pt conversion. They were not going to be denied.
Edit: I meant on the opening drive and I thought that was clear…
we made stupid mistakes in that game, like the gillan drop and chubb fumble
The Gillan drop sucked, but who knows if we could have stopped Mahomes even if he got the punt away. The Chubb fumble was a dagger. We were moving the ball, looked like we would be unstoppable and then that happened. I still felt pretty good after that game because the Chiefs had to play absolutely flawless to barely pull off a win.
That was the best I've ever felt after a loss in my entire Browns Fandom. I was terrified we'd come out flat in Week 1, just like we always do, but that game gave me confidence that the Browns were for real
Then the rest of the season happened...
So I wanna preface this comment by saying that I am a Baker Supporter, not in the blind sense, but in the sense that I like his personality, his story, his toughness and grit, and I'm a browns fan, so I hope to God he's the answer and we don't have to go looking again.
As an objective fan however, his accuracy and arm talent have never been knocks about him. Anyone who's legitimately watched him play and is being objective about this thing should know that the bad accuracy this year was an outlier most likely caused by the injuries wreaking havoc in his throwing motion.
My worry with Baker is, and has been, his shakey mechanics and decision making, especially under pressure or in clutch situations. That's what worries me. Not that he can't make every throw on schedule, it's when things get off schedule, can he make up for that like some of the other qbs in the league.
Can he change to a quick passing attack by reading the defense and taking what he's getting like a Manning or Brady, can he roll out and make unscripted, backyard plays like Wilson or Rodgers, or can he he just take over a game and will a team back from the edge of defeat like Derek Carr or Matt Stafford?
I've seen Baker be good, I've seen him be putrid, and I've seen flashes of greatness...I hope to God 2022 will be his coming out party, but im just not sure, and I can't make that final deliberation until then.
My eyes agree with you, but the stats say he has never completed more than 63% of his passes in a season
You're right. Now, completion percentage doesn't factor in those things that I mentioned earlier like when plays get off rhythm. I did find this from an article earlier about when he hit a hot streak last year:
>"From Weeks 8-17 (in 2020) he finished T-1st in turnover worthy play percentage (1.5 percent, PFF), 2nd in interception percentage (0.3 percent), and 3rd in on-target percentage (81.2 percent). These weren’t “gimme” throws via check-downs either, as Mayfield finished with the season 6th overall in average intended air yards (9.0. Next Gen Stats)"
Of course, this is a sample from Bakers BEST half of a season of his pro career, so its not indicative of who he will be as a pro, but it does show what his ceiling can be.
I agree. I will say, in my completely unprofessional opinion, the first second game it looked like he was better with going through progressions. I think you can see in this clip some of that (could be completely wrong.) But yes, big criticism I’ve had with him is that things needed to be perfect in order for him to make throws. the big difference is the last half of last year and beginning of this year when he was healthy, the line was giving him all the time in the world. Once injuries piled up and pockets started collapsing quicker he was panicking.
In fairness, his injury probably added to that panic. If he’s not confident in his power and accuracy, coupled with a collapsing line, shit is going to happen.
My hope is that he’s going into his 3rd year in this system, he should know the playbook inside and out, and once he’s healthy I hope he gets the reps in to get his confidence back and start improving his decision making and pocket presence with no external hindrance. Teams can get by with average QB play for a few years if they have a good defense and running game to make up for it (see prime seahawk years before russel blew up,) but great teams that last need great QB play.
Decision making is something that should improve with experience and good coaching. That's why I think Baker's the guy. He has the physical talents and the leadership abilities. All of his downsides are things that will improve with time.
If you watch on desktop and see 'This Tweet has been deleted' it hasn't.
It wasn’t in this clip I don’t think, but the throw he had to njoku out of the end zone in the 2nd of the chiefs game was so money. Man I want this guy to be THE GUY
god i remember how excited I was after this game. For the first time ever, I felt like even though we lost we looked fantastic. And then baker got hurt.. sigh
He looked like an elite QB. The throw to Njoku at 0:50 of the video was unreal. The guy was throwing absolute missiles with pinpoint accuracy. I remember thinking coming into the season that I couldn’t believe Baker turned the corner in 2020. That I needed him to show me it was real because it was too good to be true. Then the Chiefs game gave me so many good feelings in terms of Baker being a star. And then the injury in week 2. I’m just excited to see what he does in 2022, so that at the very least we know if he’s the guy or not.
Are we gonna have to do this once a week until the season starts?
Can't believe these fans smh...supporting their qb1 like this...disgusting
Man, his mechanics are night and day. They're gorgeous in these clips and I remember watching week 17 of this year and thinking he looks like someone who has never thrown a football before. I genuinely think he comes back next year and returns to form.
Baker can be a great QB when everything is going his way. He also struggles under pressure or when he is the focal point of the offense. Both things can be true.
Based on what I have seen elsewhere the lack of mechanics and footwork are some of the pieces holding him back.
And are things that he should have addressed by now.
And then there are the rumors of Mayfield being offered a "QB guru" to help him in the offseason with things like mechanics and footwork and him turning the offer down.
All I took away from this cut up is how terrible Anthony Schwartz’s hands are. Really wish we got a guy that was shifty and could catch the ball instead of a track star that cant catch diddly squat.
I’m glad you mentioned this because most of the receivers hands were awful this year. And seeing those clips it was major problem from beginning that didn’t get fixed. I want a receiver that can catch an ball well when it isn’t thrown perfect but still catchable.
This over and over and over again. Bakers last game was a good example, it would’ve been completely different IF his receivers would just catch the ball. And I’m not talking about when he misses but when he hit them in between the damn numbers. I’d be in the nut house if my job depended on Bakers receiving corp.
damn our passing game did look really good against the Chiefs, I still think Schwartz can be a good gadget player
seeing the hit that tore his labrum was painful
Garret Wilson plz
Yes, healthy Mayfield is much better than injured Mayfield.
But how consistently good healthy Mayfield actually can be is a very real debate
Wrong. After the first two games, which solidified that last year wasn't an accident, the talk was the Browns had finally found their franchise qb. Its revisionist history to say there were still questions about his ability as a franchise qb as this time.
Of all the criticism from those twitter comments, the most smooth brained has to be that Baker is bad at play action.
I'm curious how many people actually watch our games.
All throws from a clean pocket, show his tape when he is even slightly pressured.
Well he was on one leg half the season with zero confidence plus in healthy years he has gotten better at staying level headed.
In healthy years he gets a lot worse under pressure also - bottom half of the league under pressure. Even if you think Baker is the FQB it’s something that you’re going to have to live with.
Doesn't have to be from this year, he has never been able to handle pressure his entire career
First off I wanna say, I am one whose called out Baker. 100% admit he drove me crazy this year. But with football having only 17 games everything is a what’s happening right now mental state and Bake show was bad. Taking the time now that the season is over, Baker was hurt. Look how he was the first 2 games, that’s my guy and I think he’ll go back to that, but I swear to God if I see him try and make another tackle I’m done. So being much more level headed I’m down giving Baker another year, let’s get him some tall fast WRs and see what he’s made of.
That being said, I will tell you where I am concerned, play calling. Im having a strange feeling Stefanski isn’t the guru we think he is. His first year, the first 8 games it was Chubb all the time and it worked! Then the second half I noticed he got real pass happy, which at the time was ok because Baker started to shine and be the guy we need him to be. Then this year Stefanski went off the rails and I wasn’t sure what he was thinking. He’s not playing calls that Baker specializes in. I feel like a good coach makes an offense to highlight the strengths of your QB not trying to force your QB into something he’s not. IDk I just hope Stefanski gets it together this coming year.
Sorry for the long passionate morning toilet comment.
>He’s not playing calls that Baker specializes in
Genuine question, what exactly _does_ Baker specialise in?
When Hue/Haley where here, people said they are not playing to Baker's strengths. Fair enough.
In comes the next staff with a different scheme in Freddie/Monken. Again, apparently not playing to Baker's strengths.
So in comes a guy who runs the most QB friendly scheme there is, yet, not playing to Baker's strengths.
Ive seen this take so many times on this sub, and so far i have not received an answer, so i just have to ask again:
a) scheme _does_ play to Baker's strengths
b) are those strenghts?
Baker's strengths thus far have come from bootlegs, high-lows, RPOs and other similar two read concepts. He essentially needs an offense that makes the reads for him and never asks him to look at the entire field. These basic concepts work when the run game is elite or (ideally) if the QB can take off and run themselves.
Beyond that Mayfield hasn't shown he is above average in any attribute yet, he can steer the ship but can't be tasked with making decisions.
>Baker's strengths thus far have come from bootlegs
Teams have completely figured out how to stop bootlegs. We could not run PA boots at all. Since Baker never steps forward into the pocket, and prefers to bail out, DEs almost always take outside moves against him. With an outside move, the play side DE can be in place to disrupt the rollout, and the backside DE can pursue unblocked.
Baker also did an awful job of flipping his hips and setting his feet before throwing this year, whether injury or not, and he doesn't have the arm strength to just throw deep shots off platform. He threw multiple picks this year on rollouts by throwing cross body and not having the arm strength to get the ball to an open receiver. The Browns did not have the QB play to run boots this year.
The answer to this problem would be Baker consistently stepping up forward into the pocket, which would punish DEs who take outside moves by letting the tackles just ride them out so they overrun the QB. The reason the Browns couldn't successfully do that is that over his four years in the NFL, Baker has *never* consistently stepped forward into the pocket.
>He essentially needs an offense that makes the reads for him and never asks him to look at the entire field. These basic concepts work when the run game is elite or (ideally) if the QB can take off and run themselves.
So essentially a college QB? This also tracks with how he plays which is thinking he is shifty and mobile. He wants to play like Mahomes, Allen, Roethlisberger or Wilson where they have the wheels to move around and also tank hits.
In 2019 we ran the most RPOs in the league, iirc, and had something like 30th ranked success rate.
The other things that mentioned are pretty much true for every QB, and are very well incorporated in Stefanski's scheme, which OP claimed "isnt playing to Baker's strengths"
I was wrong. Apparently we had the 5th most RPOs and had the 27th success rate. Funny enough, Jake Burns actually did a podcast episode about exactly that.
2019 was odd because amongst the RPOs were some mind-numbingly long developing routes. There was a considerable lack of flow and rhythm in that offense in which RPOs are reliant.
That aside, I'm agreeing with you lol. Stefanski handled Baker in 2020 the way you'd handle a rookie QB or a guy that can't read a defense but has elite athleticism. There was success because of how truly great Chubb/Hunt are and the fact that the team managed to dodge injury on the O-Line.
Essentially playing to Baker's "strengths" has a shelf-life because he has no game breaking skill that overcomes his inability to run a complex offense. Two read concepts get figured out pretty quick in the NFL and if you're guy who can't run his way out of those situations or make ridiculous throws ala Herbert you're left spinning your tires a bit.
It's his fifth year, if he can't make his reads, it's time to move on.
They have no idea what they’re talking about they just are in love with Baker
Well from what I’ve seen and read, Baker excels in quick reads and RPOs. He also excels at play action throws. So he excels best when teams don’t know whether its a throw or hand off. So 3rd and longs and to a lesser extent 2nd and longs are situations where he struggles most. But, the Browns lack wide receivers who make those big plays. Schwartz doesn’t have hands. Jarvis has clearly lost a step to consistently beat up on linebackers like he used to. DPJ doesn’t get much separation on his routes. Odell was constantly hurt and utilized incorrectly. Higgins and Baker have incredible chemistry but I rarely saw Higgins all year. He’s missing playmakers and he isn’t one himself.
The accuracy was definitely there a lot more
Mediocre with a few flashes of brilliance?
The way he absolutely worked that DB on the throw after the long Schwartz completion to open up the target… looked hard at Chubb in the flat, pulled the DB down then fired to the WR behind him. Just exquisite.
My biggest complaint at this point is I don’t know how anyone thinks we will be able to upgrade. There is no guarantee we find someone in the draft. The guys everyone keeps referencing are top 5 guys. There’s a reason they’re called “generational talent”. There are probably only about 5, if not less of them. So, if you think we can find the guy, who is it? Cause this draft class ain’t it, and we aren’t getting any of the QBs that would available this off-season, and some, like cousins, wouldn’t be an upgrade and would just be a lateral move.
It seems like everyone wants to move on and just wing it and figure it out, and I don’t think they realize that means we’ll be building a team from the ground up again. No one is sticking around while we try to find a new QB for the billionth time.
Yep, everyone wants to buy lottery tickets instead of invest. Not surprising for half this sub.
I don't understand why people characterize moving on from Baker as like moving on from Kizer or Manziel or the other QBs that get trotted out for like 4 games but pretend they were legitimate options. Moving on from Baker comes with 4-5 years of context and giving him a real chance at it. The 1-31 stretch is bad but we all know that they aren't worst team ever bad, hell the stat going around that Kizer could win 4-6 games if not for redzone interceptions shows there was talent beyond the QB. Baker really came to a 3-13/4-12 win team which is bad but not any worse than any other QB. Y'all act like we gave Baker a shit team for two seasons and sent him packing when he will have 5 seasons, good line, backs and defensive talent and he still is essentially a .500 QB who has had one good season, 3 mediocre or worse and only ever shown flashes. He is just like every other QB that has fans point to their flashes and stretches and neglect their play around that. His fifth year is almost meaningless because paying him big off of one season would be just as much a mistake if/when he plays like he normally does. We all know what sticky situations Goff, Wentz have caused.
I wanted to draft Baker and after four years I am out and i realize the many strawmen arguments made at people not sold on Baker. Moving on from Baker does not mean we want to go right back to 1-31. Moving on from Baker does not mean we want trot a QB out every year. Moving on from Baker does not mean we want to fire Stefanski, hell I am team Stefanski and think getting rid of him would set us back way more than losing Baker. There is this weird thing with the characterization of Baker "haters" as just wanting to tear everything down when it has become clear this year how high of a floor this team has. even when I was a Baker fan who took the comments of those not being sold on Baker as "hate" I look back on those and they are the same as they are now. Most of the comments against him are nowhere near as hyperbolic as the "lovers" claim. I don't live in Cleveland so I am willing to concede this perception can come from some idiots calling in to the radios but I just don't see it on here.
You’re missing the point of what I was saying. I wasn’t saying that moving on in the future isn’t an option. I was saying moving on this off-season isn’t an option. There is no one better we can realistically obtain. As Stefanski and Baker have both said, they want to run it back together next year, there is no rift beyond usual frustration when the team isn’t winning. We don’t have to be “Team Stefanski” or “Team Baker”.
I’m also not saying people want to tear the entire team down, I’m saying going to the QB Carousel again will cause that to happen. Ward wouldn’t want to stay and would enter FA. Others would probably ask for trades. Clowney wouldn’t resign. Those guys want to win rings, not sit through a rebuilding team, some of them for a second time. We can’t afford to do this this off-season. We need to ride with Baker for next year, and evaluate him after a healthy year, like the front office says. If he sucks again, we move on.
Yep he looked awesome up till he tried to make that tackle.
In this video, which is supposed to be a highlight video, we still see Baker double clutching, throwing into coverage, and making a couple inaccurate throws.
You mean completions in tight windows? Yeah good QBs do that.
Tell us you hate Baker and want him off the team without telling us you hate Baker and want him off the team.
Edit: I saw all these things done by QBs currently in the playoffs, yet y’all act like these are attributes only Baker suffers from.
People don't consider the fact that if we say bye to Mayfield now we are telling any future QB that if you get hurt and have a bad year you are gone. Sets a bad precedent
Why do people think that if the browns decided to move on from mayfield it’d only be based on 2021? There’s three other full seasons they’ll be looking at to make that decision.
Ah you mean the rookie record breaking season and the seasons with coaches who we all know, including the front office, weren't suitable to run a high school team?
Sure call them whatever you want I’m just saying they wouldn’t base moving on from him solely on this year, there’s a whole body of work to look at. Also yeah sure I get kitchens was an awful coach but still not really an excuse to throw over 20 picks.
So then why did he throw only 8 the following year? It was either Kitchens or he improved. Y’all can’t have it both ways…..
Because he’s very inconsistent lol
Ahh so throwing 20 was his fault but throwing 8 was just an outlier.
Man, y’all really do run circular logic to try and hate on Baker. I’ll be loving next year when he comes out and proves everyone wrong.
I mean shit he has double digit picks in every other season so probably lol
Sure you can. Stefanski took the ball out of his hands and gave it to the running backs. It's still the same QB. We saw at the end of the year what eventually happens when the coach runs the offense through him. He's inconsistent. He's going to have a handful of multi-INT games and the odd elite game if he throws it 30+ times a lot.
> took the ball out of his hands
Lol, he still threw 486 times last year. 2nd most of his career. That doesn’t explain the drop in INTs even slightly….
Gotta look at the context though. The Browns were 28th in pass attempts in 2020, the ball was very clearly being taken out of Mayfield's hands.. it was even a season long topic of discussion in 2020 and was a credit to Stefanski's success. Saying it was the second most attempts in his career doesn't really hold a ton of weight.
You mean the rookie passing TD record which was broken two seasons later?
Oh fuck that must mean it wasn't good that he broke it
Or that the record isn’t as prestigious as once was, especially with how much offensive play calling (especially passing) has increased in recent seasons.
If fans are clutching onto that record, which is no longer a record, they may need to re-evaluate their argument for their hill to die on for baker.
Baker’s not trash, but he’s far from a franchise QB.
I was just listing it to show he isn't a scrub, you are the one reaching for any reason to take him down, including saying that him breaking a record at the time doesn't matter as much and shouldn't be considered because someone else broke it. Like wtf lol, will legit say anything to shit on baker
That rookies playing that much was rare, that's what it means. And that the game has evolved into just having more passing attempts anyway. The record is a record of "which team was shitty enough to have a rookie QB who might be decent play the most games his first year, but not shitty enough to actually have a decent line and receivers to assist".
That record was held for almost 20 years and none of the QBs after Peyton broke it. Just because Herbert broke it the following year doesn’t make it less impressive.
My god, what a ridiculous argument you are trying to present.
27 TD passes in a season is great for a rookie whether it's the all time record or not. The fact that someone else threw more later doesn't diminish that accomplishment.
I feel like a lot of people, myself at times included, feels like the 2020 mayfield washes away the 2019 mayfield. I don’t think it necessarily does and I assume the Browns or media does either.
I thought it did until he starting doing 2019 stuff this year. The double or triple clutching into sacks being the most notable one that popped back up. The team probably also wants to know if that stuff is gone for good.
My issues with Baker are not just based on this past year. Even in 2020 he still had the same mechanical flaws and didn't navigate pressure in the pocket well, those issues were the same negative things written about him in his pre draft scouting report and he hasn't improved in those areas.
When he's healthy he's able to mitigate some of those issues by escaping the pocket or using his arm strength/accuracy.
But even a healthy Baker is a below average starter in this league, probably somewhere in the 18-25 range. That isn't someone I want to give $30+ million to for the next 5 years unless he shows significant improvement in 2022
Exactly, my issues with Baker aren’t because he was bad this year it’s because after his 4th year were still seeing a ton of the issues we were warned when he came out. His footwork is still poor and he still can’t properly read a defense, these things won’t get fixed with a shoulder surgery.
No, it's not saying that. It's saying if you are mediocre, we move on.
Since most of those clips are of the KC game, remind me how healthy baker ended that game?
By getting tackled by behind trying to throw the ball away
You spelled interception wrong
I do love after that game so many people who were ready to extend Baker now want him traded lol. Recency bias is huge with Cleveland fans
Im confident that Baker can come back stronger better and healthier...physically and mentally
Who’s Twitter is this?
Emily's burner account
He was ok
If you look at his numbers over his 4 years here they aren't great. You can pick certain games or a certain season, but he will never give us consistent QB play over the course of a career.
Just gotta sort this thread by controversial to get the rational takes.
People here act like mediocre quarterbacks have never had decent stretches of play
Let’s not act like the injury is the sole and simple reason his overall play has been more often below average than it is really good. His limitations have been clear since he came into the league.
Sooo what about the other years he sucked and wasn’t injured? Dudes not elite end of discussion
Last year when he led us to the playoffs? Or his rookie year where he broke the TD record?
You’ll have to be more specific.
Completely erratic qb play without consistency. Including pre injuries this year when all he had to do was be consistent to keep the lead against the chiefs.
Rookie td record? Who cares it’s not like he broke the qb td record as a rookie, he just beat other rookies, j don’t want a good rookie I want a qb who changes the franchise.
A Josh Allen, kyler Murray, Justin Herbert, Patrick Mahomes.
That’s what you need, not a middle of the league QB
A Kyler Murray who just shit the bed in the playoffs? A Justin Herbert who didn’t even MAKE the playoffs?
Lol, you’re one of those fans who think a QB with good stats is the only thing that matters. This is a huge waste of my time if that is the case. I’d have more progress debating a brick wall. Later.
Yeah Kyler looked amazing the second half of the year…
Baker was very good in 2018. Bad in 2019 under an HC that was so bad he was gone in one year and went back to being a TE coach. He was very good in 2020 and borderline elite once he settled into the new offense. He started 2021 as good as 2nd half 2020 if not better. Then he got hurt. I can’t even comprehend how far smooth-brained one has to be to not understand that playing through a serious injury will affect performance.
I was a D1 running back in the sec with over 10 years experience coaching college and high school. Let’s discuss football and break it down and see who is smooth brained.
I’ve spoken at more coaches clinics in one day than you have coached in your entire life.
LOL ok my dude.
That whole post. We know you’re lying. Go back to league of legends.
You know who else has spent a lot of years coaching in even higher levels of football? Matt Nagy. Even if you’re telling the truth it still doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about.
Matt Nagy is a fine coach what does that have to do with anything
Thing is, you get 5 games of elite Baker (2 of them against the Bengals), 5 games of suck Baker (1 each against Ravens and Steelers) and 7 games of meh.
Ahh yes, a nice cherry picked highlight tape. Post somewhere where he’s nothing throwing from perfect conditions or has to make more than one read.
That was against the early season chiefs defense. The worst in the league and we still lost due to choking from Baker.
Barker's best is still mediocrity. Move on.
As Janet Jackson once sung....[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9uizdKZAGE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9uizdKZAGE)
Wow, an entire minute and 30 seconds of highlights. Any decent QB could make it a 10 minute reel lol. He sucks.
*Until the last drive interception
And yes I know his plant foot was hit…still a pick on a game winning drive.
And don't forget how well he played against the Bengals during his "injury"
Why did you put "injury" in quotes? You think he was faking it or something?
Fake injury with a fake surgery today obviously
I don't think he was faking it. Moreless using it as an excuse. The narrative of his injury impacting his play doesn't hold up for that particular game. Even against LAC, HOU, and KC.
Huh, it's almost like a nagging injury can affect an athlete more on some days than others or something.
So an injury hurts on/off, sometimes does sometimes doesn’t. That’s not how they work. But keep believing your QB is one tough nugget!!
Uh, yes? Anyone who's ever had a nagging injury knows that they can hurt more on some days than others. Particularly when the number of times you get slammed to the ground on any given week varies.
That's exactly what getting a torn labrum is like lmao. Some days you can do hard labor and you're fine, some days you wince reaching for a door knob. Don't ask me how that even works but that's just how it goes. Injuries are different for everyone as well. Some might always be excruciating. Some injuries like tendon tears are completely painless for some and others that tear the same tendon say it's the worst pain they've felt in their life. The human body is complicated but yeah sure you are some all knowing medical deity who knows what every injury on everyone is like despite not experiencing it.
Things working against him over the last couple of years (copying/pasting from another thread that I was late to the party on):
\*We've surrounded him with a bottom-5 WR room, cumulatively, over his four years in the league; you could argue it's lower than that. OBJ hasn't been OBJ since Obama was president, and Jarvis is like an ideal WR3, maybe a 2, but certainly not a WR1
\*The revolving door of offensive coordinators he worked with before Stefanski righted the ship (hopefully)
\*His injury this year. We'll never know how badly it impacted his performance, but that still corrupts a quarter of the data on him on some level
\* The fact that NFL seasons are short as shit, which means luck impacts teams more than longer-seasoned sports. Injuries around him, scheduling quirks (which we had a decent amount of this year), bad reffing can all tank a season
\*Our division is tough as shit, and again, because NFL seasons are so short, divisional play makes up a higher% of your schedule than any other sport, and we're always going to have a tougher time than pretty much anyone who doesn't play in the NFC West. Mahomes is obviously the best young QB going right now, but his regular season stats would certainly take a hit if he played Pittsburgh and Baltimore 2x a year, and now you can add Cinci to that mix. Ditto Josh Allen getting to play against the Jets and the Dolphins, who have been bad for most of his career. Consider that when you compare Baker to other young QBs
I'm completely open to the idea of him not being the guy. If you can upgrade the position, do it -- I've waited my whole life to look at a Browns QB and say "I have no doubt that you can lead us to a Super Bowl". I don't have that with Baker. But people who are this sure of being able to divine the future by looking at stats need to accept that chaos reigns in the NFL. Give Baker another shot with a revamped WR room, and I will not be shocked at all if he puts up career best numbers next year. We've seen him make lemonade out of lemons plenty of times before. And if he fails with better weapons around him, that's when you let Berry and Stefanski pick their own guy.
So we have...
- weapons not good enough
- bad playcalling/bad scheme/bad coaching etc
- bad luck
- division is too tough
So, my question is, at what point do you stop blaming everything and everyone but Baker?
Also, do you think Baker is the only QB who has to fight adversity? Youd be surprised.
They have no idea what they’re talking about they just have a boner for Baker
reading can be hard ;)
1. If, after you bring in like 2-3 new receivers (including a first round pick), he isn't at minimum a top-15 QB next year, then you move on. He for sure needs to hold some of the blame. The 2023 QB class looks miles better than 2022, anyway, so I'd be really excited to see what AB wants to do there to move on. Would be psyched to see him trade up for one of those prospects. Don't really want a veteran QB, would rather AB pick his guy in the draft if we do move on.
2. I don't think this, naturally. I just think that he's shown enough good (years 1 and year 3) to give him benefit of the doubt against the bad, at least for one more season, and especially considering there is just not a better realistic option. I've seen a lot of people say "he only excels when things are perfect" but that's just not the case -- he's won us games with bottom-third (or worse) receivers plenty of times.
Bruh, this reads like an Alex Jones conspiracy post.
Nuance is hard bruh, I know. It’s okay
except when OBJ was OBJ with the rams....RIGHT!!!????
Haha obj yeah because he loved being here so much it showed on the field
Well how does a wide receiver operate when the qb doesn't see he is open? Just askin..
I mean dude quit on his team way before any kind of chemistry could be built. He loves to freelance routes and Baker needs his wr to complete them
Cant tell if this is sarcastic or not haha. He’s been okay. We could have still used that this year. But he’s been pretty far from even a pro bowl level. I imagine he can have a decent next season if he stays there given they have the current best WR in football taking attention away from him, but I’d be shocked if he got a big contract this offseason
or maybe Matt Stafford is a better Qb????
I swear y’all don’t actually pay attention to the rest of the league lmao. OBJ is not playing like prime OBJ right now. Stafford is definitely better than Baker, tho I wasn’t never disagreeing with that
Was expecting clips of his commercials...