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Yeah, it left a sour taste in my mouth as well. And after I rewatched s1, it made me side eye the comment even more because I used to think that the bridgerton world was just racism free by design but after rewatching, I paid attention to the speech Lady D gave Simon about how the queen basically ended racism so it got me thinking that the abolishment of racism was a fairly recent thing and one can assume (using real world logic) that because of how recent the change was, there might still be lingering sentiments in the society.
EDIT: it’s one of the reasons why they should have just made the show race free by design instead of coming up with some flimsy reason for why the society is integrated with different people from different races. It leaves in the racial undertones for its poc characters that would not be there otherwise.
I literally just try to pretend in my head that they made it race free completely for this reason bc their explanation and the implications feel very ,,, icky somehow
With respect to your edited comment... it looks like thr QC show is doubling down on the love cures racism bs. That show is going to be so messy I can already feel it, and the fact thst 2/3 showrunners are white... lord help this show.
I think Julia Quinn is also writing a novel based on the young queen charlotte show. So there's gonna be book about a real person that they race bended into a black women in a world where love ended racism written by a white woman.
Lol what a mess. I read her books and liked them in that they killed time, but the quality and the message were both terrible. If she writes white women as if they are objects made to be taken by men at their leisure, I’d hate to see how she’s going to write a black woman. I would stay the hell away from it if I were her
I know that Shonda is going to be involved with this book, but I have no interest in reading a book with a BW as the lead from JQ. I can't find it but years ago there was a discussion about the lack of racial inclusivity in the romance genre, and JQ had a lot to say about why she didn't have POC in her books. So I have no interest in supporting her as she has realized that diversity sales.
I hope it gets brought up, I hope there is more discussion about the importance of healthy representation, and choosing more diverse voices/ series when considering future series.
It actually means nothing especially when you have real world examples such as Harry and Meghan, whose love didn't cure racism, it actually just exposed it even further in the most insidious way.
Yeah the QC spin-off show is definitely… something. It’s also going to be cheesy af if the overall point is that love ended racism. They didn’t need to explain why the bridgerton world was racism free, and now that there’s a reason for it, it just makes it look nonsensical, especially with the speed at which everything would have happened.
They wrote themselves into a corner. I understand that this is a fantasy world, but it deals with very real and very painful and harsh issues that can't be brushed under the rug or treated lightly. And knowing Bridgerton, the QC show will just do that.
Ironically I feel like this show isn't meant for black people, it's meant for white people who don't really understand what racism really is like and are the ones who easily would like to forget about it.
Also there will be comparison to Harry/Meghan. We know that in real world love does not conquer all, racism is insidious and is deeply embedded in society and love won't do shit to fix it in a single generation.
I agree. It was absolutely unnecessary and it shows itself in how poc react to the show and certain situations vs non-poc. It’s because they don’t have the same lived experience we have and can identify. Look at all the vitriol meghan gets on a daily basis, and for what?🫤
True, I'm still doubtful about the race-free theme. Maybe it's because people are sensitive to these subtleties as they have faced them and you know, I get sensitive about them too. Even in India, there's a lot of discrimination based on one's skin color or their caste. These things need to be handled carefully with kid gloves.
I’m sorry, but I don’t really understand that perspective. The sexism is the point of it, to show how Kate was undermined in that society because she was a single woman of “advanced age”. She is the opposite of what the ideal for women was, because she was opinionated, stubborn and outspoken. She was “prickly” and didn’t comply easily to the will of man like women were expected to at that time. And while I think a better term could have been chosen than beast, it is to imply that she couldn’t be tamed or ultimately needed to be because women couldn’t be allowed their own autonomy. She was the dreaded term, “spinster”, but also she was the “shrew”, and to tame was the entire goal for Anthony’s character. To tame or in other words, gain the approval of and win over, Kate. It is impossible for the sexism to be avoided in a show set during a sexist time period. That is the point of it, to show how the characters are limited and have to behave around the strict society they’re in. The sexism is the entire foundation of that society, so a reference to it through a gossip column and a reference to the “Taming of the Shrew” quote, didn’t really stand out to me tbh. It is pretty much impossible to avoid sexism in any historical material.
SO true. As a former theatre kid, (with literally no expertise outside of that so even with a limited lens and heavy grain of salt), I can attest that Shakespeare was super racist. And sexist. Among other ‘ists’.
Not a great basis for a ‘classic’ storyline, but something most people will remember being forced to read from their high school / secondary school days, so I suppose it’s a trope the show runners can rely on, despite its obvious incompatibility with modern thinking.
Prickly beast of a spinster… can you tell me how it’s racist? It’s definitely misogynistic but that’s also the genre of these type of books…
Unfortunately it’s set it a terrible time for a lot of us WOC, but again I don’t get where the racism is coming from?
You know when they say prickly beast, they mean prickly as in disagreeable/ irritable, and the beast as in she’s not lady like (aka coy, has not a thought running through her pretty head) and then of course, the gross word spinster, used to describe single women at the ripe old age of 26.
*Prickly spinster of a beast.
And the topic here is the word beast yes spinster is bad too and i am sure it's a terrible time for woc; yes yes also mysoginy is a problem but let's talk about the choice of using the word beast in this script now sorry about war and misogyny and poverty and famine and all the other world problems or how 26 was considered old back then now let us get back to the topic
>beast as in she’s not lady like (aka coy, has not a thought running through her pretty head
It's the first time i am hearing by beast you might mean coy and pretty. What i know of it is you know the history of how Europeans talked about poc? I mean i have seen pics of Europeans keeping poc in cages in a zoo so...to me it's more than clear that you should think twice in 2022 before using that word about a woc by a white character in historical regency setting. And by a narrator no less. not a villain or ms shefields they chose to put the word in the narrator's mouth. Never noticing how it looks. I am not a professional but i am pretty sure i would have paid attention to what i am writing.
True, and those people were literally treated worse than animals. And at that point of time, this was a common practice. I have seen pictures of farmers ploughing their farms and being whipped as they bled down on their land. The atrocities committed then were .............
However, this claims to be a racism-free show and honestly we can see subtle instances of racism too.
> However, this claims to be a racism-free show and honestly we can see subtle instances of racism too
Yes. Ms Shefields for example was obviously racist. But i am ok with that. She was put in her place. It bothers me cause Pen has the creators stamp if approval
By beast I said they are implying that she’s not coy and demure, she’s being overbearing, and disagreeable, and loud (because back then women were expected not to raise their voice and be actual humans).
I saw the phrase as having misogynistic overtones not racist, especially due to similar phrases being used in classic literature to describe strong women in this time period who were white.
I do agree as a whole the show does view the culture and people through a western lens (exotic etc.) but I’ve seen so many offensive representations of Indian culture in western cinema that this to me was an attempt at the celebration of it, however poorly executed.
> similar phrases being used in classic literature to describe strong women in this time period who were white.
which classical examples is that? Surly prickly was eanogh for driving the point across that Kate is "overbearing, and disagreeable, and loud"? Beast is implying uncultured. And Kate was not uncultured. She is even the most sophisticated character here. So i am not buying that excuse.
What attempt at Indian culture celebration? Please. an archbishop is marrying the hindo indian girl in a church where the bride knows none of the guests and he is reading from the bible. more like assimilation.
ITS A REGENCY FANTASY FOR CHRISTS SAKES lol. Just watch Bollywood or Tollywood ‘if this narrative is so offensive to you.
You want a pundit to bless Anthony? Let’s put him in a dhoti right? Oh wait that’s Bride and Prejudice which was a nightmare film. Kate was a celebrated heroine. She shone. She wasn’t called exotic nor was there a racial slant to her story. They included little bits here and there or different cultures in India (the jeweled tone outfits, the haldi ceremony, Kate’s dislike of English tea, etc.) it’s not perfect but they tried. It’s one thing to disagree with my analysis and quite another to pretend that this was an offensive portrayal of an Indian character.
I am so taken aback by your take. Assimilation? You’re totally right. Let’s make Anthony indian this season. Why are any of the characters caucasian? Let’s rewrite the show. I’ll call Amitabh Bachan for some shava shava to make you happy.
You take offense at the Bible? The arch bishop? Are you serious? Stay mad.
The show advertises on diversity so it better get prepared for ppl noticing when it falls short in that front. And now i don't "took offense" at the bible i notice that's not exactly Indian tradition; why are you being so hyperbolic?!
Look. Romance is a candy wrapper genre they can wrap everything inside the wrapper and sell it; racism colonialism mysoginy any kind of propaganda you name it it has been done and continues to be done... ppl are consuming media with a brain; you don't switch off your brain; it's impossible so you notice all kinds of stuff and it's allowed to talk about it and brain storm here its not criminal offence to notice. This thread has an obvious critical view on the show title you get emotional over criticism? Stay away from the threads like his then. Instead you come here and yell at other ppl for daring to polity point out the carelessness they have shown in dealing with the race issue.
Oh and don't start me on Kate you. don't want to go there..." managing to not call Kate exotic "wow that accomplishment earns them a diversity medal.
I’m actually having a conversation which is the purpose of these posts? But I will stop engaging with you because you clearly woke up today wanting to fight with someone. Indians can be Christian, Indians can be Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Buddhist, agnostic or atheist. A Bible has nothing to do with Indian tradition. I expect because, again, it’s a suspension of disbelief if racism they’re going for, that they also aren’t touching the religion discussion.
You’re asking for this evolved beautifully written harmonious tv show worth multiple awards but honestly it’s a trashy regency romance derived from super misogynistic books based on a racist time period. And hyperbole made my point so I’m happy 😃
Ignoring the mish mash inconsistencies of Indian culture they aimed to represent, beast represents untamed, brutal, uncouth characters. And since many countries at that time were colonized by England, and the way the colonized residents were treated worse than animals, it comes across as racist.
>You know when they say prickly beast, they mean prickly as in disagreeable/ irritable, and the beast as in she’s not lady like (aka coy, has not a thought running through her pretty head)
I don't think that was what it was representing, as this theme is reinforced multiple times in the show. Gatekeeper, besting..... That's the idea I got from those words.
I mean that theme of a beastly spinster is a common one in this trope in several other examples of literature (Taming of the Shrew). I’m Indian too. I guess you can read into anything if you’re looking to be upset. I’m only a casual Bridgerton fan, I’ve seen each season once and read each book once after watching the first season, so I agree it has its faults but this… really?
Growing up I had zero representation in the screen. I choose to be encouraged that at the very least a little brown girl out there sees someone like her on the big screen.
But sure. Racism. Really sucks that they included chai and a haldi ceremony and oiling hair in a series based on a misogynistic Jane Austen type series of trashy books based on a Caucasian family and time period. /s
'Chai' and a 'haldi' ceremony is not the end all and be all of Indian culture. While, I am happy that they did include Indian culture, and certain elements were presented, certain elements were not presented or written consistently. We don't demand representation, but if it's put in then do it properly. There are racial undertones in S1 as well, but you will come across them as you watch. Some elements did leave a bad taste in my mouth and honestly if you didn't perceive it in that way, then whatever works with you. I am unsure what issue you have, maybe it did not come across as racist or misogynistic to you.... That's fine. Regardless, I love the series and I love discussing the show.
Did not say they were. But if you recall 20 years ago, we were all represented by an offensive caricature of Indians on then Simpsons. We’ve come a long way and I think that should be celebrated. You’re entitled to your rant and your opinion, I’m just stating that I choose joy instead. Also never said wasn’t misogynistic. It’s based on misogynistic books babe. Read my precious comment.
The whole point of the subreddit is to discuss lol. If you love discussing then good. Don’t take offense to my comment and respect my opinion as well. Did they say if Simon’s descendants were from South Africa or Nigeria? If they had decided to make The Sharmas Punjabi or Trinidadian, or Marathi, or Mauritian, there would’ve been blow back that a different subculture wasn’t represented. The west still views the east with a “they’re all the same” lens but we’re making small strides and people are at least not forcing Bollywood into every conversation anymore. I’m holding out hope that one day representation would be perfect but Rome wasn’t created in day. Blow back like this from fans makes creators not want to try in the first place for fear of angering the audience.
Totally off-topic, but does not the east do the same to the west? That we are just white, and only little something else. For example, could a random asian distinguish Estonian culture from Danish? When they go to sauna, do they know and appreciate its cultural meaning and relevance to Finnish people?
When I say the west, I’m speaking of western media, which is primarily based in Hollywood in America and some UK content where racist epithets and fetishization of the exotic East has been a predominant theme where POC are involved.
I don’t think the average Gujurati man is going to be upset that a Georgian man doesn’t distinguish his culture from a Punjabi one. He probably doesn’t know what Georgian culture is like. That was kind of my point, I liked the main mash representation bc imo it was thoughtful and they wanted to represent everyone. You can find Indians outside of India as well.
But you can blame mainstream media again for not providing insight into Estonian culture. Also the lens the west has viewed the East is inherently racist and often times oppressive. No one behaves like Finnish people are savages or need to be saved from themselves. It’s not comparable. Watch the news surrounding the sad events recently occurring in Ukraine. Several news casters compar3: the situation to the Middle East, calling for blond haired blue eyed people to be saved and making comments like “they’re just like us, this isn’t a third world country.”
So before you try to bring up any whataboutism arguments lol, let me be clear. I’m not saying the regency era wasn’t racist, or colonialism should be forgotten or racism doesn’t exist by virtue of ignorance of Estonian culture. I’m just saying that I didn’t believe this line to be racially motivated. Let’s not do this lol
>You’re entitled to your rant and your opinion, I’m just stating that I choose joy instead.
I don't think, I ranted.
> Don’t take offense to my comment and respect my opinion as well.
I don't think my tone came off as offensive.
>holding out hope that one day representation would be perfect but Rome wasn’t created in day. Blow back like this from fans makes creators not want to try in the first place for fear of angering the audience.
There's constructive criticism and criticism. Sexism is an undertone throughout the books, and I did feel bad about it. You didn't, that's fine. That single line carries out multiple connotations and implications for a woman which are very racist and are reported by a woman who has stylized herself as a 'Lady'.
If we’re still doing this, I literally agreed that misogyny exists in the books. I also don’t know what there is to gain by reiterating what you’ve already stated previously. Have a good one ✌🏽
Why are you so upset about this? OP feels the line has racist undertones, you don't. Cool. People have different experiences which colour their perception of certain things. Both opinions are valid, so do you really need to look down on OP's opinion?
You come across as condescending and confrontational, it's not a cute look.
It’s a discussion. That’s the whole point of this forum. She posted, I disagreed, we had a conversation, and guess what? We moved on with our lives lol. Neither she nor myself meant or said anything hurtful to each other and came away from the conversation fine. I think you’ll find it’s a waste of time to be offended on other people’s behalf.
I also had the conversation continued with another poster who discussed other aspects of the believed racism with me and I myself learned something I didn’t know previously (that it’s a pattern with the show runners).It’s almost as if it’s okay to allow people to be human and make mistakes and have conversations instead of trying to punish people have having differing opinions.
>It’s a discussion. That’s the whole point of this forum.
You are right, but like I said, you came across quite condescending with your comment, stating that you didn't see it as racism so it must not be. I don't think it was a great way of expressing an opinion and I felt bad for OP, being put down for something they felt.
That's all. I'm not offended on behalf of anyone, I don't care whether you move on with your life or not. It's like you said, this is a conversation, so I conversed ;)
I said I failed to see where the racism existed and then provided commentary. That you read my comment as condescending is your own take on the matter. I refuse to be dragged into this further lol have a nice one. 👋🏽
I also disagreed with you and it was just that. I didn't call you beautiful or whatever, why would I do that??
>I refuse to be dragged into this further
Short for "I have nothing meaningful to add to a conversation"
I'm not too worried about the "mish-mash" of cultures to be honest. I'm an Indian too and from a marathi speaking community in tamil nadu (like the community has been based in TN for hundreds of years). So our community by nature is a mish mash. There are people in my family who use a lot of Tamil words in Marathi sentences. India is a country with many different cultures and languages and there is a lot of overlap between them, much more than people generally realise. Plus even in the 1800s, people travelled.
Yeah, I agree people traveled, even though it was difficult it was at that time. However, their was story was very complex and inconsistent. Honestly you only tend to incorporate languages in your life if you settle there or grow up there or are raised in that culture. When I used to live in Bangalore (I was very young and just at the age to speak), I used to communicate exclusively in Tamil but, as I grew older and we moved to other places, I can hardly recall more than a handful of words of Tamil. I saw a similar situation with my brother, who now knows a handful of words of Malyalam. Maybe she could've picked it up, maybe she couldn't have. Who knows?
This is coming from a person who has never stayed in one place for more than a year or two during the school years.
I sympathize. It's hard to make connection when you're moving all over the place. I have lived in Kerala (Bekal is quite picturesque too, if you've heard of the place) more than any other region in south, though my favorite is definitely Hyderabad.
Well... calling a brown person a beast is just a no go. It's equating brown people to mere animals. Try calling a brown person a beast in real life and see how that goes. She could've left it at prickly sister but she didn't.
You’re taking it very literally. “Her face was white with fear” doesn’t mean the female was white lol.
The first definition of beastly in the dictionary:
adjective. If you describe someone as beastly, you mean that they are behaving unkindly. [informal, old-fashioned] He must be wondering why everyone is being so beastly to him. Synonyms: cruel, mean [informal], nasty, harsh More Synonyms of beastly.
I don’t really even care this much I don’t know why this has blown up lol. It’s a literary concept. Laurie was called a beast in little women for his behavior at one point.
I mean she called Simon a savage and Kate a beast. It's a theme and it's not a cute or edgy one. It's racist. Dont call PoC savages or beasts, it doesn't matter if it's a popular phrase and they meant it only figuratively. Just don't do it. If you don't find it offensive then that's fine! But I just think there's a line and I draw it at people figuratively and literally calling PoC savages and beasts and I'm sure others do too.
Do you know which episode the "savage" remark occurs in? Someone [compiled a list](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19uQFBVWBPc0tEMfRRvEwlwk487bC2qLEE9RKjoZgG1U/edit?usp=sharing) of all of the LW quotes/references in the show and the word "savage" doesn't seem to be there. I could be mistaken. 🤷♀️
May I ask when LW called Simon a savage? I don't believe the word was used even once in the show. As I recall LW was quite fond of Simon and blatantly shipped him with Daphne over the Prussian prince, thus starting her conflict with Queen Charlotte.
Hmm I may have missed those continuous cues—I was speaking about the specific line in the post. Who’s saying this? Simon’s godmother? (Her name escapes my brain rn). Yeah savage is a big no no. I thought we were pretending racism didn’t exist in this universe created by shondaland
I think when you put the two together it poses an alarming trend, and I don't begrudge people for feeling icky about the line about Kate when it's happened before!
Penelope as LW called Simon a Savage iirc
Valid point, I didn’t put the two together. I’m not a learned student of the Bridgertoniverse. All I remember from season one is Daphne’s annoying bangs and her getting banged. Oh and her rape of Simon. That put me off. If I hadn’t been so excited for Kate I probably would’ve left already
That's fair! And honestly, I'm just here for Kate in s3 too lmao I hope they do her justice in s3 and give her a backstory, a PoV, and a good storyline thst doesn't revolve around others.
Yeah. I don't get the racist post. Sexist most definately. But that insult is one that would be used in that situation irrespective of skin colour.
So I'm missing the racism part?
She’s taking “beast” as literal to describe Indian people like natives were called “savages” in the new world. I disagree but I guess people feel hurt for all sorts of reasons.
It becomes racist when the words "beast" refer to any coloured person as they were subjugated and treated as animals or worse. That is where the racist tones come from.
P.S Just read the comments, a lot of them discuss racism and will give you a clearer idea.
The books are far from perfect but don’t try to put that line on the books. In the books, Penelope’s comments are fairly mild while on the show, they’re a lot harsher. The worst thing Penelope ever called Kate in the book was that her dress looked like a ‘singed daffodil’. This is all show Penelope
I think you misunderstood my post. I said I believe the phrase is misogynistic not racist and that regency era media is usually misogynistic. I’m not maligning the books about this line. Chill
Honestly, while it bothered me, I didn’t find it racist. I’m of Indian origin as well. For one, the show is not a study on anthropology. It is a regency fantasy and I frankly didn’t care that they did a mish-mash of Indian culture. I appreciated it for what it is, for the romance and for representation. A dark skinned Indian girl being desired in such a way was so gratifying to watch. However I do respect that others have a different opinion about it. To each their own.
So why is the word "beast" here?! As the creators they have said lw is their favourite character they think viewers all would relate to her...you put the word beast in reference to the woc who just entered the ton in her mouth..please enlighten me what it is refering to? You are a writer a showrunner a creator of a popular show you could have just easily stoped at prickly spinster why beast HAD to be included?! When you know there are millions of ppl watching it don't you stop to think about what i am saying here?! What the implications are?!
>As the creators they have said lw is their favourite character they think viewers all would relate to her
Did they really say that? Well then, it definitely represents the aspect of the human mind which loves to slander or besmirch someone and the part which craves revenge just because so and so have wronged you.
Yes i have read jq; shoda; the new show runner and one of the writers say that about Pen. The everyone can relete to her comment was i think made by jq. Don't know I am hardly a saint and i have been jealous of other women a milion times but can't say i will ever understand the kind of contempt Pen shows to Marina. Eloise. Kate. The the lengths creators are going for explaining how we are to root for her character. "Not everyone can be a pretty Bridgeton" oh yeah; that surly justifies everything! You are on a rightful crusade. Show them!
Yeah, it depends on your view, I guess. While I did enjoy the show, you tend to pick up the little details you seem to have missed when you saw the show with fresh eyes. I did love the Kanthony slow burn and I am definitely waiting for more of their scenes.
I think it’s just bad like there’s literally no reason for lady whistledown to be so insulting to Kate, especially since she’s a wallflower herself (now of course, this is smth only LW, aka penelope, knows but still). In the book she mildly critiques her fashion choice and her wallflower nature but here she openly insults kate like this urgh. It’s just really unecessary tbh, especially since after this, she’s very nonexistant in kanthony’s story, which is what she’s supposed to do in the first place.
Overall they make LW very controversial, like her insulting basically everyone and their mom, offensive and all, her constant picking of the queen, even when she knows the queen has the power to snap her. Like what was the point of making snide remarks about the queen lmao 😭🤚, aside from plot device to make the queen mad at her ??!?
I believe OP is correct. Kate was darker of the two white women (Kate and Edwina) in the books. There’s a passage in the book that says this. She was meant to be tan and outdoorsy. Back then the coveted look was porcelain and soft and tiny. So Edwina was the diamond bc she fit those characteristics. Quinn basically copy pasted the whole Jo March, Lizzie (Pride and Prejudice) capable tomboy personality with Kate.
I think anytime a brown person is negatively compared to an animal, racist undertones are felt because that kind of comparison is what has classically been used to dehumanize us.
I don't think that was the goal of that line. I think it was a tone deaf moment. This is why when attempting to make progress in diversity (which the show is putting in effort to do), it is important to have diversity in all areas of production. Mistakes and mishaps will be made along the way. As long as there is a good faith effort to do better and grace given when stumbles occur, things will get progressively better.
True, it is. I have read a lot about the racist implications and it does hurt, especially since I'm Indian myself but I've not read anything about them set in perspective for a woman.
Which is strange... because why? Lol if people feel offended by a line, let them! Their feelings are as valid as others who don't feel offended by it.
If this is because Penelope said it, well this is more about the writers than the character, and I hope people see that.
True and I think people are taking this personally on behalf of Penelope by downvoting.🤷♀️
I find myself wanting to open a can of worms by addressing Penelope.
To be fair tho, as a Kanthony fan, both Kanthony and pen fans can be rude, insecure, insufferable, and any criticism of both characters are immediately characterised as racism and fatphobia.
I see it as a mixed bag.
Beast or beastly was a common, childish insult in that era. Applied to men, women, and (most often) annoying children/siblings. Since English society was mostly white, it was generally not an insult with racist intent. However the fact that the character was changed to Indian means they probably should have chosen a different insult, even though that was a perfectly common vernacular of the day.
Kind of like if I jokingly call my white child an impish monkey, no big deal. If I did the same to one of her POC classmates it suddenly takes on a VERY racist and inappropriate undertone.
I would give the writers the benefit of the doubt on that particular one.
Oh yes, she never did something wrong, never said something bad about anyone and especially never for her own personal gain. Literal angel, she deserves so much <3
Symbolizes each area Anthony has to reach to get Kate to fall in love with him.
**prickly --- Body** (because you prick a body part)
**beast -- mind** \- (Kate is stubborn. she is resolved to see her family settled before she thinks about herself)
**spinster-- spirit (heart)** (because Kate does not intend to fall in love and marry)
After Anthony initially calls Kate "her sister" (when Lady Danbury introduces them), she is referenced throughout the show as if it's her name, not her role. They should be calling her "Miss Sharma."
"the prickly spinster of a beast known as her sister"
What is absolutely even more hurtful is the fact that these words are supposed to have come out of Penelope’s mind who’s going to be sister in law with Kate. I’m in not way tryna start a fan war here but that definitely is a bad move on the writers’ end making Pen the character who has to hold people’s hate.
We are supposed to sympathize with Pen as being bullied and overlooked by her family and the ton and yet Pen having acquired the platform to do so victimizes people who are equally powerless in the same way- and she enjoys it. Punching up, punching down, either way, it thrills her.
Well, yeah it does thrill her. In her position, a lot of people would be happy to wield that level of power, however she lacks that responsibility or understanding of how her words affect the perception of Ton. Honestly, this post is not about Penelope per se, but there might have been people who perceived it so.
I think taking it seriously would be going into the history of colonialism. However, we are not taking that seriously. While it's true that we may read too much into things, it's because a lot of us relate to a certain character and can see ourselves in them. 'beast' not only represents the subjugating a woman but, also represents racism. I like to explore the various nuances I saw in the show.
It was racist and it was intentional. Penelope uses racist conotations and innuendo in the same way that The Daily Mail does. It is the best thing about her characterisation & why even NC describes her as ‘grey’. Now if only Penelope’s stans get onboard and stop defending her undefendable actions & realise they’re stanning a bad bitch instead of a misunderstood one life would be good.
Penelope will be doing a lot of apologising after the LW reveal.
It's not really a one off, unfortunately. They had Pen call Simon a "savage" in season 1. Having their white character call the 2 main PoC leads savages and beasts... quite frankly is racist and revolting. Idk what the writers were smoking when they wrote those lines.
I don't think it will. The messy characters are all gonna be white next season lol but I swear if she insults Kate one more time she will catch my figurative hands lol
Sad to hear that. They had a diverse writer's room both seasons and that was what they came up with. Well CVD was also rewriting a lot of what was ultimately the scripts so who knows where it actually came from.
I don't think she represented the Sharma's particularly well. They just clubbed different Indian regions together and their backstory was inconsistent. The 'Sharma' surname is predominantly from the north Indian regions and is a Brahmin surname (Brahmin was a caste in India which belonged to the erudite and holy). Then they hail from Bombay(now known as Mumbai), which was the home to the Maratha empire, but Kate addresses her father as 'Appa', which is a South indian désignation and also refers to Edwina as 'bon', a Bengali nickname.
What they didn't understand is that each state has it's own culture, it's own language, it's own unique traditions, which sets India apart, but all these states stand united as Indians.
Well they did understand that. The official excuse is they wanted to use bits and pieces of regional Indian culture so that all all Indians would find something in it. They supposedly had a consultant too. I would like to be a fly on the wall at the meetings where they talked about this.
I want to be a fly on that wall too and see how the discussion played out. I would have loved to see an Indian wedding, they are gorgeous and extremely fun with all of the ceremonies.
However, I do find it conflicting that as a show geared towards women, they have no issue in pitting women against each other. The Sharma family debacle was handled very badly
That's not really fair to her though. She wasn't the show runner and being in conflict with other writers could damage her career. People lose it when these topics come up.
My question, though not related to this post, is -which season was more reflective of what CVD wanted for the show? S1 tries to have some degree of realism, S2 doesn't.
>That's not really fair to her though. She wasn't the show runner and being in conflict with other writers could damage her career. People lose it when these topics come up.
True, it really isn't. As I said in a later post CVD admitted to have rewritten stuff up to shooting. He could have added that without her knowing.
I think CVD wanted it to be a romantic fantasy no matter how they did it. Although I do think that he wanted each season to have it's own distinct flavor so to speak.
It wasn’t uncommon at that time, plus she was playing dragon to her sister’s princess, which is how I viewed it. I don’t think there were deliberate racist undertones, I think it was just showing what type of gatekeeper she was, plus, because of her age, she was a spinster. It only ever bothered me the spinster part, the beast part sounded fierce.
It's regency fiction, and Kate as a character is an outspoken and unmarried woman of 26, so if you wanted to say something mean about her - "prickly beast of spinster". It's sexist, but I wouldn't say racist. I mean, Kate being poc/indian isn't the problem, it's her being unladylike/outspoken and unmarried, and Mary marrying a clerk, someone of lower class and one with already a child - those are thing things the mean people of the ton gossip about - not her being brown.
I don't see anything racist here. Especially when there are Queen and Lady D as two powerful characters in the show. Pen only writes what she hears, which are nicknames Ton gave Kate, like how in season 1 she praised Simon, but also called him "savage", Pen was also called Wallflower, Anthony was also called Rake. My friend, this is just a movie, if you look racist everywhere you look, you should also see that the show is discriminatory in terms of class, appearance, gender. Don't complicate matters, I'm not pretty, I'm not rich, I'm Asian, but I'm not upset. Just simply enjoy the show. Have a good day 💜
It's alright if you don't see anything negative here, that's your view.
>nicknames Ton gave Kate, like how in season 1 she praised Simon, but also called him "savage", Pen was also called Wallflower, Anthony was also called Rake.
However your inadvert comparison of Wallflower and Rake to "savage" and "beast" is horrible and absurd. Penelope has a choice to write and frame her words, these are her words and, even though she might not understand the implications of her words, the people they're targeted towards do and especially the Ton understands them too.
>My friend, this is just a movie, if you look racist everywhere you look, you should also see that the show is discriminatory in terms of class, appearance, gender.
Yes there are themes of classism, racism and sexism throughout the show, but for a show claiming to be "racism-free", this is a bit hypocritical. Moreover, I do adore the show since I rarely watch romance. But, I also love to share my opinions and discuss a lot of stuff.
Have a good day too.💜
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Yeah, it left a sour taste in my mouth as well. And after I rewatched s1, it made me side eye the comment even more because I used to think that the bridgerton world was just racism free by design but after rewatching, I paid attention to the speech Lady D gave Simon about how the queen basically ended racism so it got me thinking that the abolishment of racism was a fairly recent thing and one can assume (using real world logic) that because of how recent the change was, there might still be lingering sentiments in the society. EDIT: it’s one of the reasons why they should have just made the show race free by design instead of coming up with some flimsy reason for why the society is integrated with different people from different races. It leaves in the racial undertones for its poc characters that would not be there otherwise.
I literally just try to pretend in my head that they made it race free completely for this reason bc their explanation and the implications feel very ,,, icky somehow
With respect to your edited comment... it looks like thr QC show is doubling down on the love cures racism bs. That show is going to be so messy I can already feel it, and the fact thst 2/3 showrunners are white... lord help this show.
I think Julia Quinn is also writing a novel based on the young queen charlotte show. So there's gonna be book about a real person that they race bended into a black women in a world where love ended racism written by a white woman.
Lol what a mess. I read her books and liked them in that they killed time, but the quality and the message were both terrible. If she writes white women as if they are objects made to be taken by men at their leisure, I’d hate to see how she’s going to write a black woman. I would stay the hell away from it if I were her
I know that Shonda is going to be involved with this book, but I have no interest in reading a book with a BW as the lead from JQ. I can't find it but years ago there was a discussion about the lack of racial inclusivity in the romance genre, and JQ had a lot to say about why she didn't have POC in her books. So I have no interest in supporting her as she has realized that diversity sales.
yeah, i have seen that video and I am surprised it isn’t talked about more. but pretty sure someone will dig that one up when the time comes.
I hope it gets brought up, I hope there is more discussion about the importance of healthy representation, and choosing more diverse voices/ series when considering future series.
It actually means nothing especially when you have real world examples such as Harry and Meghan, whose love didn't cure racism, it actually just exposed it even further in the most insidious way.
Yeah the QC spin-off show is definitely… something. It’s also going to be cheesy af if the overall point is that love ended racism. They didn’t need to explain why the bridgerton world was racism free, and now that there’s a reason for it, it just makes it look nonsensical, especially with the speed at which everything would have happened.
They wrote themselves into a corner. I understand that this is a fantasy world, but it deals with very real and very painful and harsh issues that can't be brushed under the rug or treated lightly. And knowing Bridgerton, the QC show will just do that. Ironically I feel like this show isn't meant for black people, it's meant for white people who don't really understand what racism really is like and are the ones who easily would like to forget about it. Also there will be comparison to Harry/Meghan. We know that in real world love does not conquer all, racism is insidious and is deeply embedded in society and love won't do shit to fix it in a single generation.
I agree. It was absolutely unnecessary and it shows itself in how poc react to the show and certain situations vs non-poc. It’s because they don’t have the same lived experience we have and can identify. Look at all the vitriol meghan gets on a daily basis, and for what?🫤
True, I'm still doubtful about the race-free theme. Maybe it's because people are sensitive to these subtleties as they have faced them and you know, I get sensitive about them too. Even in India, there's a lot of discrimination based on one's skin color or their caste. These things need to be handled carefully with kid gloves.
Isn’t it a reference to the Taming of the Shrew?
Maybe but the racist and the sexist undertones are bad. Not that the Taming of the Shrew is particularly stellar on that front, either.
I’m sorry, but I don’t really understand that perspective. The sexism is the point of it, to show how Kate was undermined in that society because she was a single woman of “advanced age”. She is the opposite of what the ideal for women was, because she was opinionated, stubborn and outspoken. She was “prickly” and didn’t comply easily to the will of man like women were expected to at that time. And while I think a better term could have been chosen than beast, it is to imply that she couldn’t be tamed or ultimately needed to be because women couldn’t be allowed their own autonomy. She was the dreaded term, “spinster”, but also she was the “shrew”, and to tame was the entire goal for Anthony’s character. To tame or in other words, gain the approval of and win over, Kate. It is impossible for the sexism to be avoided in a show set during a sexist time period. That is the point of it, to show how the characters are limited and have to behave around the strict society they’re in. The sexism is the entire foundation of that society, so a reference to it through a gossip column and a reference to the “Taming of the Shrew” quote, didn’t really stand out to me tbh. It is pretty much impossible to avoid sexism in any historical material.
Yes thank you! It wasn’t meant to be nice, was supposed to be mean
SO true. As a former theatre kid, (with literally no expertise outside of that so even with a limited lens and heavy grain of salt), I can attest that Shakespeare was super racist. And sexist. Among other ‘ists’. Not a great basis for a ‘classic’ storyline, but something most people will remember being forced to read from their high school / secondary school days, so I suppose it’s a trope the show runners can rely on, despite its obvious incompatibility with modern thinking.
I watched the Taming of the Shrew play/movie recently, and I was appalled. I was very naive and clueless when I was young.
Prickly beast of a spinster… can you tell me how it’s racist? It’s definitely misogynistic but that’s also the genre of these type of books… Unfortunately it’s set it a terrible time for a lot of us WOC, but again I don’t get where the racism is coming from? You know when they say prickly beast, they mean prickly as in disagreeable/ irritable, and the beast as in she’s not lady like (aka coy, has not a thought running through her pretty head) and then of course, the gross word spinster, used to describe single women at the ripe old age of 26.
*Prickly spinster of a beast. And the topic here is the word beast yes spinster is bad too and i am sure it's a terrible time for woc; yes yes also mysoginy is a problem but let's talk about the choice of using the word beast in this script now sorry about war and misogyny and poverty and famine and all the other world problems or how 26 was considered old back then now let us get back to the topic >beast as in she’s not lady like (aka coy, has not a thought running through her pretty head It's the first time i am hearing by beast you might mean coy and pretty. What i know of it is you know the history of how Europeans talked about poc? I mean i have seen pics of Europeans keeping poc in cages in a zoo so...to me it's more than clear that you should think twice in 2022 before using that word about a woc by a white character in historical regency setting. And by a narrator no less. not a villain or ms shefields they chose to put the word in the narrator's mouth. Never noticing how it looks. I am not a professional but i am pretty sure i would have paid attention to what i am writing.
True, and those people were literally treated worse than animals. And at that point of time, this was a common practice. I have seen pictures of farmers ploughing their farms and being whipped as they bled down on their land. The atrocities committed then were ............. However, this claims to be a racism-free show and honestly we can see subtle instances of racism too.
> However, this claims to be a racism-free show and honestly we can see subtle instances of racism too Yes. Ms Shefields for example was obviously racist. But i am ok with that. She was put in her place. It bothers me cause Pen has the creators stamp if approval
By beast I said they are implying that she’s not coy and demure, she’s being overbearing, and disagreeable, and loud (because back then women were expected not to raise their voice and be actual humans). I saw the phrase as having misogynistic overtones not racist, especially due to similar phrases being used in classic literature to describe strong women in this time period who were white. I do agree as a whole the show does view the culture and people through a western lens (exotic etc.) but I’ve seen so many offensive representations of Indian culture in western cinema that this to me was an attempt at the celebration of it, however poorly executed.
> similar phrases being used in classic literature to describe strong women in this time period who were white. which classical examples is that? Surly prickly was eanogh for driving the point across that Kate is "overbearing, and disagreeable, and loud"? Beast is implying uncultured. And Kate was not uncultured. She is even the most sophisticated character here. So i am not buying that excuse. What attempt at Indian culture celebration? Please. an archbishop is marrying the hindo indian girl in a church where the bride knows none of the guests and he is reading from the bible. more like assimilation.
ITS A REGENCY FANTASY FOR CHRISTS SAKES lol. Just watch Bollywood or Tollywood ‘if this narrative is so offensive to you. You want a pundit to bless Anthony? Let’s put him in a dhoti right? Oh wait that’s Bride and Prejudice which was a nightmare film. Kate was a celebrated heroine. She shone. She wasn’t called exotic nor was there a racial slant to her story. They included little bits here and there or different cultures in India (the jeweled tone outfits, the haldi ceremony, Kate’s dislike of English tea, etc.) it’s not perfect but they tried. It’s one thing to disagree with my analysis and quite another to pretend that this was an offensive portrayal of an Indian character. I am so taken aback by your take. Assimilation? You’re totally right. Let’s make Anthony indian this season. Why are any of the characters caucasian? Let’s rewrite the show. I’ll call Amitabh Bachan for some shava shava to make you happy. You take offense at the Bible? The arch bishop? Are you serious? Stay mad.
The show advertises on diversity so it better get prepared for ppl noticing when it falls short in that front. And now i don't "took offense" at the bible i notice that's not exactly Indian tradition; why are you being so hyperbolic?! Look. Romance is a candy wrapper genre they can wrap everything inside the wrapper and sell it; racism colonialism mysoginy any kind of propaganda you name it it has been done and continues to be done... ppl are consuming media with a brain; you don't switch off your brain; it's impossible so you notice all kinds of stuff and it's allowed to talk about it and brain storm here its not criminal offence to notice. This thread has an obvious critical view on the show title you get emotional over criticism? Stay away from the threads like his then. Instead you come here and yell at other ppl for daring to polity point out the carelessness they have shown in dealing with the race issue. Oh and don't start me on Kate you. don't want to go there..." managing to not call Kate exotic "wow that accomplishment earns them a diversity medal.
I’m actually having a conversation which is the purpose of these posts? But I will stop engaging with you because you clearly woke up today wanting to fight with someone. Indians can be Christian, Indians can be Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Buddhist, agnostic or atheist. A Bible has nothing to do with Indian tradition. I expect because, again, it’s a suspension of disbelief if racism they’re going for, that they also aren’t touching the religion discussion. You’re asking for this evolved beautifully written harmonious tv show worth multiple awards but honestly it’s a trashy regency romance derived from super misogynistic books based on a racist time period. And hyperbole made my point so I’m happy 😃
Ignoring the mish mash inconsistencies of Indian culture they aimed to represent, beast represents untamed, brutal, uncouth characters. And since many countries at that time were colonized by England, and the way the colonized residents were treated worse than animals, it comes across as racist. >You know when they say prickly beast, they mean prickly as in disagreeable/ irritable, and the beast as in she’s not lady like (aka coy, has not a thought running through her pretty head) I don't think that was what it was representing, as this theme is reinforced multiple times in the show. Gatekeeper, besting..... That's the idea I got from those words.
I mean that theme of a beastly spinster is a common one in this trope in several other examples of literature (Taming of the Shrew). I’m Indian too. I guess you can read into anything if you’re looking to be upset. I’m only a casual Bridgerton fan, I’ve seen each season once and read each book once after watching the first season, so I agree it has its faults but this… really? Growing up I had zero representation in the screen. I choose to be encouraged that at the very least a little brown girl out there sees someone like her on the big screen. But sure. Racism. Really sucks that they included chai and a haldi ceremony and oiling hair in a series based on a misogynistic Jane Austen type series of trashy books based on a Caucasian family and time period. /s
'Chai' and a 'haldi' ceremony is not the end all and be all of Indian culture. While, I am happy that they did include Indian culture, and certain elements were presented, certain elements were not presented or written consistently. We don't demand representation, but if it's put in then do it properly. There are racial undertones in S1 as well, but you will come across them as you watch. Some elements did leave a bad taste in my mouth and honestly if you didn't perceive it in that way, then whatever works with you. I am unsure what issue you have, maybe it did not come across as racist or misogynistic to you.... That's fine. Regardless, I love the series and I love discussing the show.
Did not say they were. But if you recall 20 years ago, we were all represented by an offensive caricature of Indians on then Simpsons. We’ve come a long way and I think that should be celebrated. You’re entitled to your rant and your opinion, I’m just stating that I choose joy instead. Also never said wasn’t misogynistic. It’s based on misogynistic books babe. Read my precious comment. The whole point of the subreddit is to discuss lol. If you love discussing then good. Don’t take offense to my comment and respect my opinion as well. Did they say if Simon’s descendants were from South Africa or Nigeria? If they had decided to make The Sharmas Punjabi or Trinidadian, or Marathi, or Mauritian, there would’ve been blow back that a different subculture wasn’t represented. The west still views the east with a “they’re all the same” lens but we’re making small strides and people are at least not forcing Bollywood into every conversation anymore. I’m holding out hope that one day representation would be perfect but Rome wasn’t created in day. Blow back like this from fans makes creators not want to try in the first place for fear of angering the audience.
Totally off-topic, but does not the east do the same to the west? That we are just white, and only little something else. For example, could a random asian distinguish Estonian culture from Danish? When they go to sauna, do they know and appreciate its cultural meaning and relevance to Finnish people?
When I say the west, I’m speaking of western media, which is primarily based in Hollywood in America and some UK content where racist epithets and fetishization of the exotic East has been a predominant theme where POC are involved. I don’t think the average Gujurati man is going to be upset that a Georgian man doesn’t distinguish his culture from a Punjabi one. He probably doesn’t know what Georgian culture is like. That was kind of my point, I liked the main mash representation bc imo it was thoughtful and they wanted to represent everyone. You can find Indians outside of India as well. But you can blame mainstream media again for not providing insight into Estonian culture. Also the lens the west has viewed the East is inherently racist and often times oppressive. No one behaves like Finnish people are savages or need to be saved from themselves. It’s not comparable. Watch the news surrounding the sad events recently occurring in Ukraine. Several news casters compar3: the situation to the Middle East, calling for blond haired blue eyed people to be saved and making comments like “they’re just like us, this isn’t a third world country.” So before you try to bring up any whataboutism arguments lol, let me be clear. I’m not saying the regency era wasn’t racist, or colonialism should be forgotten or racism doesn’t exist by virtue of ignorance of Estonian culture. I’m just saying that I didn’t believe this line to be racially motivated. Let’s not do this lol
>You’re entitled to your rant and your opinion, I’m just stating that I choose joy instead. I don't think, I ranted. > Don’t take offense to my comment and respect my opinion as well. I don't think my tone came off as offensive. >holding out hope that one day representation would be perfect but Rome wasn’t created in day. Blow back like this from fans makes creators not want to try in the first place for fear of angering the audience. There's constructive criticism and criticism. Sexism is an undertone throughout the books, and I did feel bad about it. You didn't, that's fine. That single line carries out multiple connotations and implications for a woman which are very racist and are reported by a woman who has stylized herself as a 'Lady'.
If we’re still doing this, I literally agreed that misogyny exists in the books. I also don’t know what there is to gain by reiterating what you’ve already stated previously. Have a good one ✌🏽
I think most of my replies to you were about racism and the culture. But have a good day to you, buh-bye.
Why are you so upset about this? OP feels the line has racist undertones, you don't. Cool. People have different experiences which colour their perception of certain things. Both opinions are valid, so do you really need to look down on OP's opinion? You come across as condescending and confrontational, it's not a cute look.
It’s a discussion. That’s the whole point of this forum. She posted, I disagreed, we had a conversation, and guess what? We moved on with our lives lol. Neither she nor myself meant or said anything hurtful to each other and came away from the conversation fine. I think you’ll find it’s a waste of time to be offended on other people’s behalf. I also had the conversation continued with another poster who discussed other aspects of the believed racism with me and I myself learned something I didn’t know previously (that it’s a pattern with the show runners).It’s almost as if it’s okay to allow people to be human and make mistakes and have conversations instead of trying to punish people have having differing opinions.
>It’s a discussion. That’s the whole point of this forum. You are right, but like I said, you came across quite condescending with your comment, stating that you didn't see it as racism so it must not be. I don't think it was a great way of expressing an opinion and I felt bad for OP, being put down for something they felt. That's all. I'm not offended on behalf of anyone, I don't care whether you move on with your life or not. It's like you said, this is a conversation, so I conversed ;)
I said I failed to see where the racism existed and then provided commentary. That you read my comment as condescending is your own take on the matter. I refuse to be dragged into this further lol have a nice one. 👋🏽
I also disagreed with you and it was just that. I didn't call you beautiful or whatever, why would I do that?? >I refuse to be dragged into this further Short for "I have nothing meaningful to add to a conversation"
Maturity is not for everyone. It’s okay.
Why do people need to look 'cute' when having a discussion? How misogynistic and disgusting. "It's not a cute look" - fuck off with that bullshit.
Lol thanks you made me chuckle. Trying to be honest and not lower myself to the childish taunts, but it’s sooo tempting haha.
It's a saying. Did you feel offended? Let me do like the person above and explain why you shouldn't /s >fuck off Right back at ya, sister.
I'm not too worried about the "mish-mash" of cultures to be honest. I'm an Indian too and from a marathi speaking community in tamil nadu (like the community has been based in TN for hundreds of years). So our community by nature is a mish mash. There are people in my family who use a lot of Tamil words in Marathi sentences. India is a country with many different cultures and languages and there is a lot of overlap between them, much more than people generally realise. Plus even in the 1800s, people travelled.
Yeah, I agree people traveled, even though it was difficult it was at that time. However, their was story was very complex and inconsistent. Honestly you only tend to incorporate languages in your life if you settle there or grow up there or are raised in that culture. When I used to live in Bangalore (I was very young and just at the age to speak), I used to communicate exclusively in Tamil but, as I grew older and we moved to other places, I can hardly recall more than a handful of words of Tamil. I saw a similar situation with my brother, who now knows a handful of words of Malyalam. Maybe she could've picked it up, maybe she couldn't have. Who knows? This is coming from a person who has never stayed in one place for more than a year or two during the school years.
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I sympathize. It's hard to make connection when you're moving all over the place. I have lived in Kerala (Bekal is quite picturesque too, if you've heard of the place) more than any other region in south, though my favorite is definitely Hyderabad.
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Oh I've never been to Andaman, been to Kanyakumari though, I've also lived in Kochi.
Well... calling a brown person a beast is just a no go. It's equating brown people to mere animals. Try calling a brown person a beast in real life and see how that goes. She could've left it at prickly sister but she didn't.
You’re taking it very literally. “Her face was white with fear” doesn’t mean the female was white lol. The first definition of beastly in the dictionary: adjective. If you describe someone as beastly, you mean that they are behaving unkindly. [informal, old-fashioned] He must be wondering why everyone is being so beastly to him. Synonyms: cruel, mean [informal], nasty, harsh More Synonyms of beastly. I don’t really even care this much I don’t know why this has blown up lol. It’s a literary concept. Laurie was called a beast in little women for his behavior at one point.
I mean she called Simon a savage and Kate a beast. It's a theme and it's not a cute or edgy one. It's racist. Dont call PoC savages or beasts, it doesn't matter if it's a popular phrase and they meant it only figuratively. Just don't do it. If you don't find it offensive then that's fine! But I just think there's a line and I draw it at people figuratively and literally calling PoC savages and beasts and I'm sure others do too.
Do you know which episode the "savage" remark occurs in? Someone [compiled a list](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19uQFBVWBPc0tEMfRRvEwlwk487bC2qLEE9RKjoZgG1U/edit?usp=sharing) of all of the LW quotes/references in the show and the word "savage" doesn't seem to be there. I could be mistaken. 🤷♀️
I was just about to post this. Nobody can find where she called him a savage.
May I ask when LW called Simon a savage? I don't believe the word was used even once in the show. As I recall LW was quite fond of Simon and blatantly shipped him with Daphne over the Prussian prince, thus starting her conflict with Queen Charlotte.
Hmm I may have missed those continuous cues—I was speaking about the specific line in the post. Who’s saying this? Simon’s godmother? (Her name escapes my brain rn). Yeah savage is a big no no. I thought we were pretending racism didn’t exist in this universe created by shondaland
I think when you put the two together it poses an alarming trend, and I don't begrudge people for feeling icky about the line about Kate when it's happened before! Penelope as LW called Simon a Savage iirc
Valid point, I didn’t put the two together. I’m not a learned student of the Bridgertoniverse. All I remember from season one is Daphne’s annoying bangs and her getting banged. Oh and her rape of Simon. That put me off. If I hadn’t been so excited for Kate I probably would’ve left already
That's fair! And honestly, I'm just here for Kate in s3 too lmao I hope they do her justice in s3 and give her a backstory, a PoV, and a good storyline thst doesn't revolve around others.
Yeah. I don't get the racist post. Sexist most definately. But that insult is one that would be used in that situation irrespective of skin colour. So I'm missing the racism part?
She’s taking “beast” as literal to describe Indian people like natives were called “savages” in the new world. I disagree but I guess people feel hurt for all sorts of reasons.
It becomes racist when the words "beast" refer to any coloured person as they were subjugated and treated as animals or worse. That is where the racist tones come from. P.S Just read the comments, a lot of them discuss racism and will give you a clearer idea.
The books are far from perfect but don’t try to put that line on the books. In the books, Penelope’s comments are fairly mild while on the show, they’re a lot harsher. The worst thing Penelope ever called Kate in the book was that her dress looked like a ‘singed daffodil’. This is all show Penelope
I think you misunderstood my post. I said I believe the phrase is misogynistic not racist and that regency era media is usually misogynistic. I’m not maligning the books about this line. Chill
Honestly, while it bothered me, I didn’t find it racist. I’m of Indian origin as well. For one, the show is not a study on anthropology. It is a regency fantasy and I frankly didn’t care that they did a mish-mash of Indian culture. I appreciated it for what it is, for the romance and for representation. A dark skinned Indian girl being desired in such a way was so gratifying to watch. However I do respect that others have a different opinion about it. To each their own.
So why is the word "beast" here?! As the creators they have said lw is their favourite character they think viewers all would relate to her...you put the word beast in reference to the woc who just entered the ton in her mouth..please enlighten me what it is refering to? You are a writer a showrunner a creator of a popular show you could have just easily stoped at prickly spinster why beast HAD to be included?! When you know there are millions of ppl watching it don't you stop to think about what i am saying here?! What the implications are?!
>As the creators they have said lw is their favourite character they think viewers all would relate to her Did they really say that? Well then, it definitely represents the aspect of the human mind which loves to slander or besmirch someone and the part which craves revenge just because so and so have wronged you.
Yes i have read jq; shoda; the new show runner and one of the writers say that about Pen. The everyone can relete to her comment was i think made by jq. Don't know I am hardly a saint and i have been jealous of other women a milion times but can't say i will ever understand the kind of contempt Pen shows to Marina. Eloise. Kate. The the lengths creators are going for explaining how we are to root for her character. "Not everyone can be a pretty Bridgeton" oh yeah; that surly justifies everything! You are on a rightful crusade. Show them!
Yeah, it depends on your view, I guess. While I did enjoy the show, you tend to pick up the little details you seem to have missed when you saw the show with fresh eyes. I did love the Kanthony slow burn and I am definitely waiting for more of their scenes.
I think it’s just bad like there’s literally no reason for lady whistledown to be so insulting to Kate, especially since she’s a wallflower herself (now of course, this is smth only LW, aka penelope, knows but still). In the book she mildly critiques her fashion choice and her wallflower nature but here she openly insults kate like this urgh. It’s just really unecessary tbh, especially since after this, she’s very nonexistant in kanthony’s story, which is what she’s supposed to do in the first place. Overall they make LW very controversial, like her insulting basically everyone and their mom, offensive and all, her constant picking of the queen, even when she knows the queen has the power to snap her. Like what was the point of making snide remarks about the queen lmao 😭🤚, aside from plot device to make the queen mad at her ??!?
True, and book Kate was dark skinned too. Edit: Sorry, I read that wrong and misconstrued it
Kate was white in the books. She might not have been as light as Edwina but she definitely wasn't dark skinned.
Happy cake day, btw
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
Umm sorry but i don’t think she was dark skinned in the book 😅😭. Pretty sure at one point she’s described as “pale”. She has dark hair tho.
I believe OP is correct. Kate was darker of the two white women (Kate and Edwina) in the books. There’s a passage in the book that says this. She was meant to be tan and outdoorsy. Back then the coveted look was porcelain and soft and tiny. So Edwina was the diamond bc she fit those characteristics. Quinn basically copy pasted the whole Jo March, Lizzie (Pride and Prejudice) capable tomboy personality with Kate.
I think anytime a brown person is negatively compared to an animal, racist undertones are felt because that kind of comparison is what has classically been used to dehumanize us. I don't think that was the goal of that line. I think it was a tone deaf moment. This is why when attempting to make progress in diversity (which the show is putting in effort to do), it is important to have diversity in all areas of production. Mistakes and mishaps will be made along the way. As long as there is a good faith effort to do better and grace given when stumbles occur, things will get progressively better.
I hear you and I don't disagree with you, but prepare for a lot of pushback OP. This thread is going to be a bumpy ride.
True, it is. I have read a lot about the racist implications and it does hurt, especially since I'm Indian myself but I've not read anything about them set in perspective for a woman.
Which is strange... because why? Lol if people feel offended by a line, let them! Their feelings are as valid as others who don't feel offended by it. If this is because Penelope said it, well this is more about the writers than the character, and I hope people see that.
True and I think people are taking this personally on behalf of Penelope by downvoting.🤷♀️ I find myself wanting to open a can of worms by addressing Penelope.
Pen fans are incredibly insecure from what I've seen it's weird as hell considering they know their fave is the showrunners darling.
To be fair tho, as a Kanthony fan, both Kanthony and pen fans can be rude, insecure, insufferable, and any criticism of both characters are immediately characterised as racism and fatphobia.
It’s more likely that literally everything said against Kate is chalked up to racism and less to do with Penelope…
I see it as a mixed bag. Beast or beastly was a common, childish insult in that era. Applied to men, women, and (most often) annoying children/siblings. Since English society was mostly white, it was generally not an insult with racist intent. However the fact that the character was changed to Indian means they probably should have chosen a different insult, even though that was a perfectly common vernacular of the day. Kind of like if I jokingly call my white child an impish monkey, no big deal. If I did the same to one of her POC classmates it suddenly takes on a VERY racist and inappropriate undertone. I would give the writers the benefit of the doubt on that particular one.
Here’s an award for “getting it” 😄
Ooooh gossip girl stans are not liking this one...don't you know she never did or said something wrong? She's an angel.
🤣🤣🤣 I feel like pulling a Penelope and creating another post focused on her
Do it! You're going to get downvoted and the gossip girl protection squad is going to jump at your throat but do it! 😌
they will call you fatphobic too.
They wanna make her a victim so bad
I think Penelope is an extremely flawed character who needs to face the consequences of her actions.
An angel wronged by everyone. The most selfless character in the show too. Can't believe there are people who actually believe that.
Oh yes, she never did something wrong, never said something bad about anyone and especially never for her own personal gain. Literal angel, she deserves so much <3
Symbolizes each area Anthony has to reach to get Kate to fall in love with him. **prickly --- Body** (because you prick a body part) **beast -- mind** \- (Kate is stubborn. she is resolved to see her family settled before she thinks about herself) **spinster-- spirit (heart)** (because Kate does not intend to fall in love and marry) After Anthony initially calls Kate "her sister" (when Lady Danbury introduces them), she is referenced throughout the show as if it's her name, not her role. They should be calling her "Miss Sharma." "the prickly spinster of a beast known as her sister"
Nice theory and an interesting perspective.
What is absolutely even more hurtful is the fact that these words are supposed to have come out of Penelope’s mind who’s going to be sister in law with Kate. I’m in not way tryna start a fan war here but that definitely is a bad move on the writers’ end making Pen the character who has to hold people’s hate.
We are supposed to sympathize with Pen as being bullied and overlooked by her family and the ton and yet Pen having acquired the platform to do so victimizes people who are equally powerless in the same way- and she enjoys it. Punching up, punching down, either way, it thrills her.
Well, yeah it does thrill her. In her position, a lot of people would be happy to wield that level of power, however she lacks that responsibility or understanding of how her words affect the perception of Ton. Honestly, this post is not about Penelope per se, but there might have been people who perceived it so.
I personally think people read too much into things. It's a regency fantasy romance show. I really don't think it's supposed to be that deep.
I think taking it seriously would be going into the history of colonialism. However, we are not taking that seriously. While it's true that we may read too much into things, it's because a lot of us relate to a certain character and can see ourselves in them. 'beast' not only represents the subjugating a woman but, also represents racism. I like to explore the various nuances I saw in the show.
It was racist and it was intentional. Penelope uses racist conotations and innuendo in the same way that The Daily Mail does. It is the best thing about her characterisation & why even NC describes her as ‘grey’. Now if only Penelope’s stans get onboard and stop defending her undefendable actions & realise they’re stanning a bad bitch instead of a misunderstood one life would be good. Penelope will be doing a lot of apologising after the LW reveal.
Yeah it was really nasty.
Well you'll have to ask Geetika Lizardi, the Indian writer in the S2 writers room, why she allowed this. I would be curious to know myself.
It's not really a one off, unfortunately. They had Pen call Simon a "savage" in season 1. Having their white character call the 2 main PoC leads savages and beasts... quite frankly is racist and revolting. Idk what the writers were smoking when they wrote those lines.
I agree, and I hope this trend wouldn't continue in the future season.
I don't think it will. The messy characters are all gonna be white next season lol but I swear if she insults Kate one more time she will catch my figurative hands lol
>they had Pen call Simon a “savage” in season 1 When was that?
In the first couple of episodes when she’s describing him at some point. Can’t pin point exactly when, I’ve only watched S1 twice…
Sad to hear that. They had a diverse writer's room both seasons and that was what they came up with. Well CVD was also rewriting a lot of what was ultimately the scripts so who knows where it actually came from.
I don't think she represented the Sharma's particularly well. They just clubbed different Indian regions together and their backstory was inconsistent. The 'Sharma' surname is predominantly from the north Indian regions and is a Brahmin surname (Brahmin was a caste in India which belonged to the erudite and holy). Then they hail from Bombay(now known as Mumbai), which was the home to the Maratha empire, but Kate addresses her father as 'Appa', which is a South indian désignation and also refers to Edwina as 'bon', a Bengali nickname. What they didn't understand is that each state has it's own culture, it's own language, it's own unique traditions, which sets India apart, but all these states stand united as Indians.
Well they did understand that. The official excuse is they wanted to use bits and pieces of regional Indian culture so that all all Indians would find something in it. They supposedly had a consultant too. I would like to be a fly on the wall at the meetings where they talked about this.
I want to be a fly on that wall too and see how the discussion played out. I would have loved to see an Indian wedding, they are gorgeous and extremely fun with all of the ceremonies. However, I do find it conflicting that as a show geared towards women, they have no issue in pitting women against each other. The Sharma family debacle was handled very badly
That's not really fair to her though. She wasn't the show runner and being in conflict with other writers could damage her career. People lose it when these topics come up. My question, though not related to this post, is -which season was more reflective of what CVD wanted for the show? S1 tries to have some degree of realism, S2 doesn't.
>That's not really fair to her though. She wasn't the show runner and being in conflict with other writers could damage her career. People lose it when these topics come up. True, it really isn't. As I said in a later post CVD admitted to have rewritten stuff up to shooting. He could have added that without her knowing. I think CVD wanted it to be a romantic fantasy no matter how they did it. Although I do think that he wanted each season to have it's own distinct flavor so to speak.
She wasnt a writer. She was an assistant writer. And the final says lies with the showrunners.
Yes as I said in another post. CVD admitted to rewriting things up until shooting.
Oh yeah it does sound offensive so I agree.
It wasn’t uncommon at that time, plus she was playing dragon to her sister’s princess, which is how I viewed it. I don’t think there were deliberate racist undertones, I think it was just showing what type of gatekeeper she was, plus, because of her age, she was a spinster. It only ever bothered me the spinster part, the beast part sounded fierce.
I personally think Kate would have been like "damn right" while reading that.
The fact that Kate doesn’t give a fuck doesn’t mean is right.
It's regency fiction, and Kate as a character is an outspoken and unmarried woman of 26, so if you wanted to say something mean about her - "prickly beast of spinster". It's sexist, but I wouldn't say racist. I mean, Kate being poc/indian isn't the problem, it's her being unladylike/outspoken and unmarried, and Mary marrying a clerk, someone of lower class and one with already a child - those are thing things the mean people of the ton gossip about - not her being brown.
I don't see anything racist here. Especially when there are Queen and Lady D as two powerful characters in the show. Pen only writes what she hears, which are nicknames Ton gave Kate, like how in season 1 she praised Simon, but also called him "savage", Pen was also called Wallflower, Anthony was also called Rake. My friend, this is just a movie, if you look racist everywhere you look, you should also see that the show is discriminatory in terms of class, appearance, gender. Don't complicate matters, I'm not pretty, I'm not rich, I'm Asian, but I'm not upset. Just simply enjoy the show. Have a good day 💜
It's alright if you don't see anything negative here, that's your view. >nicknames Ton gave Kate, like how in season 1 she praised Simon, but also called him "savage", Pen was also called Wallflower, Anthony was also called Rake. However your inadvert comparison of Wallflower and Rake to "savage" and "beast" is horrible and absurd. Penelope has a choice to write and frame her words, these are her words and, even though she might not understand the implications of her words, the people they're targeted towards do and especially the Ton understands them too. >My friend, this is just a movie, if you look racist everywhere you look, you should also see that the show is discriminatory in terms of class, appearance, gender. Yes there are themes of classism, racism and sexism throughout the show, but for a show claiming to be "racism-free", this is a bit hypocritical. Moreover, I do adore the show since I rarely watch romance. But, I also love to share my opinions and discuss a lot of stuff. Have a good day too.💜