T O P
isfrying

I fully expect to see two posts here, one saying "Tyson never fought anybody good' and the other saying "Tyson fought everybody."


JohnGwynbleidd

Well yes, because Mike's legacy is full of revisionism from both extremes, especially from boxing journos who never actually bothered analyzing things in context.


Ghost_comics

A lot of people hate on Tyson but his prime was really his run to the championship and his victory over Beber. After that he said that's when the partying and drugs started so we never got to see what he would've truly been capable of considering he was only 20 years old at the time.


gayqwertykeyboard

When did Tyson fight Justin Bieber?


jeasegreat

Prime Tyson is always a problem. He was prescribed lithium and thorazine. U can't train how his style needed while ur on that stuff. Hell coke might have helped him get some pep back. Lifestyle stole that man's prime but I'm glad he is an icon despite it all.


Boxnglove

To me it does not matter "what if" for Tyson. He did what he did and that's just it. If he wanted to be remembered differently, he had the power to change that. He is at best a top 40 ATG. Hell, Ali also missed 3 years of his prime (for a much better reason). "what if" didn't matter bc he came back to challenge everyone with great success.


B_e_l_l_

Will be the same for both Mike and Fury.


GarfieldDaCat

Anyone who knew boxing at the time knew Loma was gonna work a 36 year old Rigo jumping up 2 weight classes lol. Hence Loma being -450 according to Vegas lol


balaclavaloungeparty

Even Loma doesn't take much credit for that win because of the size difference I've said this before but it's funny how now that Loma is the little guy fighting the big guys and winning, no one gives him credit. There are very few top names beating guys in weight divisions above their natural weight


1982000

That illustrates just how competitive boxing is, and how remarkable it was for Duran to move up 11 pounds and beat Leanord, or Hearns victory over previously undefeated light heavyweight Virgil Hill.


Wavepops

duran didnt move up straight into a Leonard fight either, another misconception


1982000

You say another misconception. Was there a first misconception? Duran moved up in '79, beat leonard in '80. Quite a feat anyway you slice it.


Wavepops

its the best win in boxing history imo that or Ali beating foreman or Leonard vs 147 Hearns(who should've been unbeatable). but yea he didnt move up straight into a fight and its phrased like he did. he fought a couple WWs before fighting Leonard


1982000

I think Ali vs. Foreman was more surprising. He not only won, he won by KO. He's the only man to knock out Foreman. Ring Magazine named Duran 'The Fighter of the decade of the 70's', and with the win over Palomino, he looked like a threat to any welterweight. By contrast, people were truly and rightfully worried about Ali's health.


TheDangerdog

Ali only beat Foreman because Joe Frazier and Norton had softened him up first. Foreman was never the same after those wars both men really took something out of George and Ali mopped up the leftovers. (*sorry I was just trying to rewrite history in the spirit of the thread title. How did I do?*)


1982000

Pretty good.


timeandspace11

Dude didn't even take a tune up before going right for Linares at 135 who was on a 13-fight win streak. Loma is the man.


Agreeable_Net_4325

Nakatani was pretty good when he took teo to a decision. After loma stopped him he became a can.


alilbitsooner

I was very impressed that Guillermo had 400+ amateur fights, then I realized that 400+ amateur fights eats away prime years of professional fighting. Of course rigondeaux still is a master pugilist


yupyupyuypypn

Yeah that was a bad example by OP. I remember seeing tons in here knowing the truth that Loma would school him. Was never a doubt in my mind


McDonalds_Toothpaste

I wasn't aware of the odds, but that wasn't the vibe I got from boxing fans at the time.


X-pertwatcher

Interesting topic non the less


McDonalds_Toothpaste

Thanks!


KingJaffeJoe

Yea I don’t know anyone choosing Rigo and I have a lot of Cuban friends. He bumped up two classes lol. You’re post is a straight up lie and rewriting history.


bluesshark

This sub absolutely sucks at finding middle grounds in discussions. You're right about the hardcore fans but there was also a lot of casuals (which like or not is most sports spectators) that simply saw a clash of 2 elites with unique styles and near perfect records. So again, you're right about who the obvious pick should've been but OP said boxing fans, not specifying hardcore. I clearly remember exactly what they're describing before the fight because unfortunately most opinions on this sub aren't expert


FlockxBigApe

Casual fans also thought Connor had a chance to ko Floyd….that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t seen as those in the know as one sided


bluesshark

>Casual fans also thought Connor had a chance to ko Floyd I feel like that's not the best comparison cause a lot of that was MMA fans invading and skewing the general opinion


drinfernodds

Sometimes, but a lot of mma fans knew a specialist in a martial art would beat an mma fighter who isn't a specialist in said discipline.


bluesshark

True, maybe I should've said mma casuals + Joe Rogan


KingJaffeJoe

I understand what you’re saying but then again, why would that even matter? You’re admitting that anyone that followed boxing knew the deal in the buildup to the fight, and that this wasn’t some 50-50 pick-em’ whatsoever… So then the fight takes place and people are hit with reality and the “hype” that casual fans had was just that- hype. So why should we make sure that the “credit” we give Loma in 2022 matches the credit some uninformed casual fan that doesn’t understand weight classes had before the fight? Lol i don’t get what point y’all are trying to make.


bluesshark

I think it's just that a considerable number of people were actually surprised by what happened, and OP is just acknowledging that. Nothing too serious my man. Nobody's invalidating the informed opinions of people with deeper understanding


Gusso303

My opinion on it is, The hard-core fans watched Loma at the Olympics and we knew there would be a schooling that night. 'Casual' fans seen it as two of the best amateurs ever fighting each other and, I'd bet 80-90% of those fans had no idea of the step up in weight. And hey, how good Loma was that night even surprised me a little.


McDonalds_Toothpaste

Go actually look at the posts about this fight before it happened. I don't care what your Cuban friends think, most people were hyped for it and said it'd be a great fight. There wasn't this majority opinion that Loma would win. You are exactly who I was talking about lol. You bring up the weight classes despite the fact that he carried the weight just fine, and Loma never used his weight against him.


KingJaffeJoe

“I don’t care what your Cuban friends think” “Go read random posts from random redditors, that’s the true pre-fight narrative” Lol ok bud


Stiltzkinn

Lol exactly


chetdesmon

-450 vegas odds is pretty much a majority opinion, Reddit just doesn't know much.


SemenMoustache

I agree with you. I'd say Loma was considered the favourite, though there was certainly a lot of people here who were confident Rigo would win. Certainly not a one sided match up like its become since I'd never watched Rigo fight before, but got up at like 5am because this sub had me convinced it was gonna be unmissable


rolan56789

I dunno. Outside of War Rigo memeing, don't really know anyone in person or online who really saw it as a 50/50 tbh.


Stiltzkinn

Rigo memeing was hilarious.


armourofgod666

When everybody (fans, boxers, and commentators) was counting out Chocolatito because of his losses to Rungvisai. The narrative was that he was past his prime and done after his battles with the Thai. Many even were talking about retirement or the end of an era. What everyone ignored was the fact that Chocolatito’s life long head coach died and his wife divorced him during the Rungvisai fights. That mental aspect affects performance more than people think. Afterwards when he got his shit together (after going through four different trainers to find the right one) he went on a four fight win streak against legit contenders then took out Olympic medalist and defending champion Yafai to recapture the title. Even then people were still reeling off the Rungvisai losses and claimed Chocolatito looked sluggish and a shadow of his former self and that Kal Yafai underestimated Tito and tried to fight his fight, when the narrative should have been he returned to form by stopping a heralded amateur and current young, hungry champ. It wasn’t until his Estrada rematch and Julio Cesar Martinez fights that people began acknowledging his return, though that is wrong as well because he never left! Everyone was so surprised at his performances the last two fights but anyone not following the mainstream “Chocolatito is past his prime even though he’s still in his early 30s” (back during Rungvisai, he’s still in his prime at 33/34 now) knew he’s still a p4p though they’ll never give him the respect he deserves by putting him back higher on that list. He’s been dominating that division for years and now has re-dominated it these last few years again. And make no mistake 115 is one of the toughest divisions and the most underrated, period. You have 3 champions in that division ranked in the top 10 p4p: Chocolatito the former p4p king and one of the greatest offensive/volume boxers ever, Kazuto Ioka Japan’s most credentialed boxer during the modern belt era, the country’s only 4 div champion, and Estrada who is the big daddy of the division currently and a throwback to the likes to tiny technical Mexican wizards like Humberto Gonzales. With prodigy Jessie Rodriguez (youngest current champ who took out Cuadras and Rungvisai and is fighting on the Canelo comain against a mutual Chocolatito opponent in 3 time title challenger Israe Gonzalez) and Kosei Tanaka (Japan fastest ever 3 division champ looking to become the second Japanese ever to be 4 div champ) in the wings. How is Tito not higher on the p4p list? Also Lomachenko being discredited after losing to Teo. People pretending like he wasn’t one of the greatest talents ever after his recent loss to Teo. Lots of talk about how he’s never really faced anyone etc. The man fought Orlando Salido in his second fight. He tied the record for capturing a belt in record time in his third fight against Gary Fucking Russel Jr. He then broke the record for being the fastest two division champion by dominating super featherweight. During this time he had the legendary NoMasChenko run, making four straight former/current champs quit on the stool, including dominating fellow p4p amateur star Rigon, retiring hyped champion Nicolas Walters (who KO’d Donaire), and made Jason Sosa quit (who KO’d Javier Fortuna in his original weight class). Then as the smaller man he moves into one of the toughest divisions period and Matrixes a prime Jorge Linares (3 division champ, one of the fastest men at LW, and years long LW king pin), former champ Anthony Crolla, and Luke Campbell. Loses, in what many people forget in hindsight, was an extremely close fight to Teofimo, with a torn shoulder. Rebounds with tougher fights than anybody but Devin Haney has been facing as of recently, stopping one of the most durable men in the division in Nakatani and stunted on former champ Richard Commey. And now he wants all the smoke. Lomachenko has had one of the best resumes/willing to fight anyone of the last few years. No champion is willing to get into as many tough title fights as he was/is. Dude is a dog. There’s a trend here. Boxing fans don’t react to losses well.


damdestbestpimp

When you are a casual you always hear about Ali knocking out an exhausted Foreman after being bulldozed for 8 rounds. In reality its just Ali beating the shit out of Foreman lmao


RegulusJones

People apparently only watch the final 2 rounds of the Rumble in the Jungle where the rope a dope was most prevalent and assume the whole fight was like that. I was surprised the first time I actually watched all of it how Ali was actually punching the shit out of Foreman during the whole affair.


RVD_Icy

Or the he beats him in a rematch. I think they forgot Ali wasn’t just rope a doping his way to victory but actually outboxing Foreman and landing heavy.


G_Morgan

A lot of people think a rematch is interesting because Foreman is actually a really clever fighter. He got completely done with his own set of tricks by Ali but you have to think he does a lot better on a rematch.


Cryformekid

Foreman was mentally destroyed by Ali. In a rematch his mind would have been even more broken and he would have lost again because he isn't putting Ali down and he definitely isn't out pointing him. Good thing a rematch didn't happen because Foreman likely would have killed himself in the aftermath.


reeeeeeeeeee78

I think the fight occured at like 100 degrees in high humidity and foreman has bad stamina, also fairly well established he couldn't spar for quite awhile leading up to the fight. Anyone who's ever went for a jog in 95 degree weather understands how much of a hit your stamina takes. I think Ali was far better prepared and the better man on the night, but I think foreman makes a several fold better showing of himself in a rematch. Alis not a big puncher, and foreman has taken excessively more and harder blows then that in the past and still won.


Impossible_Dance_443

Ali not being a "big puncher" has to be the most casual think I've ever heard. Tell that to Sony Liston and Cleveland Williams


reeeeeeeeeee78

Shit then I probably shouldn't post one of the most iconic boxing videos ever where Ali says "I'm not known for being a hard puncher" Which Liston fight do you mean anyways? The one where he took a dive from the "phantom punch" , or the one where he quit on his stool? Solid take buddy.


QuickRundown

Liston took a dive.


unclepoondaddy

He knocked him out in the first fight too


reeeeeeeeeee78

No.


Stormruler1

That Liston fight was rigged lmao Something clearly wasn't right with Liston that day. Ali barely touched him with that punch.


Joe_Rogan_is_a_Dwarf

When I watched that fight when I was younger that’s what I saw, I thought the ‘rope-a-dope’ was Ali letting Foreman just beat him up until he couldn’t no more, I didn’t even think he won a round and was banking on the knockout, even thought perhaps it was bullshit and Ali made up the rope a dope to make it look like it was ‘all a plan’ when in reality he found a lucky KO. Funnily enough Foreman v Moorer fits that description better


[deleted]

[Here's an incredible breakdown by the legendary Lee Wylie](https://youtu.be/G1_JW3wnrik) if you all need to see some proof of how insanely brilliant Ali was that night.


rocoto_picante

That's a narrative that Ali spun. He liked demoralizing Foreman and others.


Wh0k3be

Disagree. The ropes were legit weirdly loose. Normally taunt ropes and it would be a different fight. That said, Ali deserves full credit for better taking advantage of the conditions.


Lazy_Fishing5011

Canelo backed up ggg in the 2nd fight, but G’s back never touched the ropes. Edit: There’s a difference between fighting off the backfoot in the center of the ring and being driven backwards along the ropes.


Bleve23

This!!!!! I have a bunch of friends that are boxing fans and they keep saying that. When the whole fight was damn near fought in the center of the ring cause they refused to go back.. but it was canelo who ended up folding and starting to back up once he realized Golovkin wasn’t going anywhere and Canelo started to gas


Raider7oh7

Backing up is not necessarily cornering someone. Canelo obviously did make ggg fight off the back foot and the second Canelo got a little winded ggg turned it around. Touching the ropes doesn’t mean much for these guys. In the first fight canelos back was on the ropes a lot and he was still landing power punches and defensively sound.


JoelHenryJonsson

Yeah if I remember correctly the only one who touched the ropes in that fight was Canelo


Charlie-Bell

Take this further and the overwhelming opinion on the night was that Golovkin won. These days it's a fair result.


Soya21

You're right even though you're downvoted here are the media scorecards Harold Lederman (HBO Sports): 116-112 Golovkin Brian Campbell (CBS sports): 116-112 Golovkin Dan Rafael (ESPN): 114-114 draw Stephen A. Smith (ESPN): Golovkin won Arash Markazi (ESPN): 114-114 draw Brett Okamoto (ESPN): 114-114 draw Teddy Atlas - Golovkin won Salvador Rodríguez (ESPN Mexico): 114-114 draw Eduardo Lamazón (Televisa): 116-112 Golovkin Gareth A Davies (The Telegraph): 116-112 Golovkin Josh Peter (USA Today): 115-113 Golovkin Sports Illustrated: 114-114 draw Dylan Hernandez (LA Times): 115-113 Golovkin Lance Pugmire (La Times): 114-114 draw BoxingScene: 114-114 draw Chris Mannix (Yahoo! Sports): 115-113 Golovkin Kevin Iole (Yahoo! Sports): 114-114 draw The Guardian: 116-112 Golovkin Joe DePaolo (Washington Post): 115-113 Golovkin Mike Coppinger (Ring Magazine): 114-114 draw Douglass Fischer (Ring Magazine): 114-114 draw Mike Baca II (Ring Magazine and Undisputed Champion Network): 115-113 Golovkin Al Bernstein (Showtime Sports): Golovkin won Sherdog.com: 116-112 Golovkin Jai Bednall (news.com.au): 115-113 Golovkin Brian Mazique (Forbes): 114-114 draw Adam Abramowitz (Ring Magazine and SN Boxing): 115-113 Golovkin Tom Craze (Bad Left Hook): 116-112 Golovkin Fraser Coffeen (Bloody Elbow): 115-113 Golovkin Anton Tabuena (Bloody Elbow): 115-113 Golovkin The Associated Press: 114-114 draw Adam Caparell (Complex Sports): 116-112 Golovkin Bill Simmons (HBO and The Ringer): 114-114 draw Steven Muehlhausen (Sporting News): 116-112 Golovkin Andreas Hale (Sporting News): Golovkin won Graham Houston (Boxing Monthly): Canelo won Michael Montero (MonteroOnBoxing): 115-113 Golovkin Matt Christie (Boxing News): 115-114 Golovkin George Willis (New York Post): 114-114 draw Gary Melo (SportsNet Canada): Golovkin won Below The Belt Podcast: 115-113 Golovkin World Boxing News: 115-113 Golovkin Jeff Powell (Daily Mail): 116-113 Golovkin Marcos Villegas (Fight Hub TV): 114-114 draw Michelle Rosado (Raging Babe): 115-113 Canelo Michelle Joy Phelps (Behind the Gloves): 115-113 Golovkin Lennox Lewis: Golovkin won by 2 rounds Fight Nights: 115-113 Golovkin Michael Woods (NYFights.com): two point edge for Golovkin Dieter Kurtenbach (San Jose Mercury News and the East Bay Times): Golovkin won by 3 rounds Rafael G (the Fight City): 116-112 Golovkin 34 for GGG, 2 for Canelo, 15 for Draw average fan scorecard (1773 fans): 116-113 Golovkin ​ Source: https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/canelo-vs-ggg-2-media-scorecards.3826867/


Charlie-Bell

The downvotes were expected, but trying to find Canelo's name in that list is like playing Where's Wally/Waldo. I don't know if I was here, but I wouldn't be surprised if I dug into the fight thread from the night and found it to be a strong opinion too.


Chairman__Netero

I was here. Almost everybody had GGG winning. I’m NOT even saying that a reasonable fighting fan couldn’t have a draw or Canelo win but that its not reasonable for there to be too many of those. The majority is always going to go with GGG on that one so that’s why the draw was so ridiculous.


Charlie-Bell

Sounds like you're talking about the first fight, but we were discussing the second.


cuntyeagle

There were points in the fight where GGG fights off the back foot. I'm not sure why that matters, though. They were both fighting at mid range the majority of the fight. Nothing wrong with taking a few steps back defensively or to set up shots. It's part of boxing.


A1_PunisherPipkins

Some recent ones off the top of my head: Most boxing fans were criticizing Canelo for facing Fielding and Kovalev 3 yrs ago, mentioning that Canelo is scared of the legit world champs at 168, but when Canelo made easy work of the 168 division a year ago, now poeple are saying that those were easy fights and that it wasn't that impressive as it was already expected of Canelo. When Teo beat Loma, he was already being hyped up to be a future ATG by boxing fans, but when Kambosos beat him, suddenly that Loma fight could have gone either way and that if Loma started earlier, he would have won it 100%, totally ignoring Teo's bodywork and short hard counters that made Loma so hesitant in the first place.


Reptilianlizard

168 shit is hilarious. i remember there was a whole post where everybody said that canelo had no business with the guys at 168 and that they would beat him, now it’s “all the guys at 168 are paper champs.”


No_Island9955

Exactly. Recently I was looking at old posts that were pre 168 Canelo. Saying that Canelo is way too small for 168 division and he doesn't stand a chance. Fast forward now and now people arent satisfied and that the 168 division was weak ignoring him wiping out the division and unifying the belts. No matter who he fights people will always find a way to complain and be unsatisfied.


Stiltzkinn

People aren't satisfied he went vs prime Bivol lol.


jcquinn8

In fact, some use that loss as a slight against him


No_Island9955

He can fight Usyk and people still won't be satisfied


Reptilianlizard

at this point i jus laugh and keep it pushing. if it was triple g doing the same thing canelo did, it would be the most impressive shit to the people on this sub.


santoagito1997

Just look at Benavidez in 2020, he was just an unproven champion (he still is) but now according to many fans he is the monster of 168 who is at the same level as beterviet and bivol and that canelo is afraid of hi


Oglark

I honestly thought Callum Smith had a chance but I was a little sceptical after the Ryder fight. I did not give BJS or Caleb much of a shot after he beat Callum.


KingJohnTX

I distinctly remember everybody saying Callum Smith was too big for Canelo and that's why he picked Fielding, just to say he has a win at 168.


PopPop-Magnitude

I dont think people discount Loma of Teo, or rather shouldnt, because of that fight. Loma had an off night and won half the fight, and Teo definitely has what it takes to be great. Similarly, Teo had an off night too but it doesnt make him bad.


KingJohnTX

I think saying Loma had "an off night" is discounting Teo. Loma had an off night because of Teo.


PopPop-Magnitude

You can agree that it was both. Loma having an off night doesnt mean his opponent wouldnt have to be great himself to overcome him.


KingJohnTX

I just think the things people point out as Loma "having an off night" were caused by Teo.


PopPop-Magnitude

Yes and no. No because Loma had a shoulder injury and was cautious of using that arm, but yes because Teo effectively neutralized whatever Loma had left to give.


Stiltzkinn

Remember when this sub was saying [Canelo has no chance vs Callum Smith](https://www.reddit.com/r/Boxing/comments/a7sukm/canelo_vs_callum_smith_168_who_takes_it/)? Pepperidge Farm remembers


Reptilianlizard

exactly what i was talking about. multiple threads like this. this sub is a hivemind.


palmer1384

This was also before Smith should have lost to John Ryder. Before that fight most saw Smith as the best at 168.


SucculentChinaMeal

One of the replies in that thread is "this is the same sub that says usyk would give joshua/fury/wilder a tough fight"


balaclavaloungeparty

I will never understand how anyone can ignore the post fight surgery pics and think that Loma was himself in that fight. He pretty much uses one arm for the first half of the fight and that can't be explained by Teofimo's game plan. As soon as Loma knew he had to throw caution to the wind and does start using his jab, the fight shifted dramatically and we saw the same Loma we always see.


batmanscreditcard

Right? Just look at the scorecards and guess when loma started actually fighting. He won the last half of the fight 5-1. He gave the fight away. Shoulda listened to Papachenko who wanted him to wait and be healthy first.


Kendo8639

Exactly


hi_imryan

Teo was excellent in the Loma fight. His biggest problems are his head and his dad and those two things are probably related.


alstroker13

Spot on both. Especially the Teo take. Ppl act like that fight was close when it wasnt at all. It was 8-4 7-5 at BEST. If Loma started earlier sure maybe he could’ve won more rds but there also a good chance he got knocked out or seriously hurt as we saw in the 12th when they were both throwing 😂


cuntyeagle

I thought it was very close, 7-5 or 8-4 at WORST. Many at the time felt the same. The judge who had it 9-3 needs to have his eyes checked and the 119-109 scorecard was one of the worst I've ever seen, on par with the Byrd scorecard.


A1_PunisherPipkins

Exactly. Teo had the perfect gamplane for that fight and executed it perfectly.


batmanscreditcard

lol teo beat a one armed smaller fighter with a 6 round head start, and still barely scraped by.


Chairman__Netero

🤡


batmanscreditcard

Tell me how I’m wrong? Look at the scorecards. When loma stopped saving his shoulder he won 5 of 6 rounds. He landed just under 50%.


Chairman__Netero

Too many ifs and whens. Teo did not get a 6 round head start, Loma lost six rounds. The way you’re wording is horribly biased. Yeah, Loma came back strong. But whether it was because he was scared of Teo’s power, needed surgery, or had a the wrong game-plan don’t matter. If it did matter, every fighter would get “surgery” after a loss and blame it on it. Lima accepted the fight and Loma lost every one of the first six rounds. That’s amateur stuff. If you’re hurt ask for a delay just like many fighters have. I mean, honestly, if you can’t see what’s clowney about your wording on reflection then I can’t help you.


batmanscreditcard

I’m not saying loma won. You’re right he had a horrible gameplan. Papachenko wanted him to wait and not even take the fight right away. But teo can have won rounds on paper, didn’t mean he earned them. One fighter refusing to engage does not necessarily mean the other outboxed them. It was pretty clear who the superior fighter is once loma actually started. Loma lost of his own accord but it wasn’t because he isn’t / wasn’t the better fighter. Nothing clowney about my reflection. I think it’s pretty objective. Look at the scorecards if you have to (first 6 rounds Vs last 6). Loma lost, but teo didn’t beat him, he beat himself. I think many would agree.


Raider7oh7

I think it was close I had it 7-5 with loma needing the 12th to tie and instead he bitched out


alpaca_drama

Teo definitely beat Loma but Loma starting late was already discussed after the fight ended, nothing to do with Kambosos. Loma looked scared of getting hit. But he found his rhythm later in the fight. Had he been not so gunshy, he definitely could’ve won.


MartialF1

Joshua beating Klitschko was framed as if he was the one to dethrone him, it was really weird.


bluebergsa

It was probably because Joshua knocked him out while fury won a decision in a boring fight


__IZZZ

Yeah, combined with Fury taking two years off because of ~~a drug ban~~ depression.


Oglark

You are forgetting the "uncastrated " boar meat


MartialF1

You gotta try something to keep up with Joshua's 'excellent genes' lol


Oglark

Then he should have got the "clear"


kinshasa_zaire

You think he hasn't dealt with mental illness?


__IZZZ

I'm unsure, know very little about him. Based on what he says, sure, guy's a walking contradiction. Reality is though, that his drug ban got swept under the carpet, hidden by the talk of his remarkable recovery. Recovery from problems that started the minute he got his ban, and ended the minute it was over. Yes of course it could have been related but he's hardly shown himself to be an honest man, one who would give his entire purse to charity. So frankly I don't believe a word he says (or almost anyone in boxing to be fair). Regardless, in response to the 'Joshua beating Klitschko was framed as if he was the one to dethrone him' comment, his exit from the sport probably played a part and that exit was caused by a drug ban.


Manzilla48

Fury wasn’t given a drug ban when he beat Klitschko


frontera_power

>Joshua beating Klitschko was framed as if he was the one to dethrone him, it was really weird. Yeah, I saw that just a couple days ago. People talking about Joshua taking the championship away from Klitschko and getting upvoted for saying it. lol In reality Klitschko wa 41 years old and wasn't even champ when they fought.


SlightlyIncandescent

TBF it's a possibility. The 27yo shredded, promising, smiling, UK born olympian vs the 40+ yo champion. There's more money in Aj winning so it's definitely possible.


SemenMoustache

I think he's more implying that Fury had beaten him in his previous fight


SlightlyIncandescent

Oh yeah i can see that now, completely misunderstood what he meant.


robjapan

Fury sure did "beat him".... If you can call what happened that night boxing... Or a fight.... Then.... Sure? Klitchsko was desperate for the rematch and fury ran away... That's a loss by being absent imo


MartilloFuerte_

Well sure, if you're an absolutely clueless casual, you can have some doubt. Anyone who knows anything about boxing knows that was a completely one sided domination, and Fury actually put damage on Wlad and had him wobbled 2 or 3 times. One of those times the crooked referee jumped in to save Wlad's life. https://www.google.it/search?q=wladimir+klitschko+face+after+tyson+fury&sxsrf=ALiCzsbioVm4WPwzFJx1ZyViQF1T5HM8Bg:1663482983241&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwik-riC3Z36AhXSR_EDHTxaDkgQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=2144&bih=1035&dpr=0.9#imgrc=R8gRniKM2uavPM "Barely a fight", lol


MartialF1

Is Fury still calling for Joshua though or did he already lose by being absent? Or did his stock just plummeted too much for him to still be a relevant contender?


robjapan

I think the fury johsua fight is on for December no?


MartialF1

Havent heard anything official yet but I can understand Joshua looking for a massive payday before all his losses will catch up to him, everyone knows it'll be a formality for Fury anyway at this point, he's been exposed so its a bit of a meh fight, the fans want to see Fury Usyk and let Joshua fight Wilder first.


robjapan

I disagree, I think Joshua is the only man in the division right now that could beat fury. He's a better boxer than wilder and has power too. Joshua struggles with smaller guys with fast hands, when has he ever struggled against big guys?


MartialF1

Joshua simply doesn't deserve it, he just got beaten twice by a cruiserweight. Can't just claim to go for a belt again after that, he also got knocked out by Ruiz so im curious to see what a Wilder would do to him, im afraid it'll be a career ender.


robjapan

He absolutely doesn't deserve it and I'm amazed fury would offer it to him.


CLURT10

Pacquiao taking easier fights to stat pad his way to 8 weight classes. Canelo being a baby when he jumped in with Mayweather


PasswordWordpass

Canelo wasn't a baby when he fought Mayweather but he also wasn't a great fighter yet. We don't have to push too far in either direction like I see happening in this sub sometimes. Everyone ages differently. Canelo was no Salvador Sanchez where he was special at 23. He had very exploitable weaknesses and was tailor-made for Mayweather's style. That being said he had been in over 40 fights at that point and been champion so it's not like he was a can. But he was very much an underdog in that fight. This isn't aimed at you so much but I feel like I needed to say it.


CLURT10

Thats valid bro


PasswordWordpass

Appreciate it bro. I was pretty drunk when I sent that so hope it came across well! Hope you had a good night/day.


Agreeable_Net_4325

Canelo is way stronger than he use to be. Juice or not. I don't think mayweather can take prime canelo's power.


Mecha_Knight11

People actually say the first one? Damn. Even if that was true you have to remember Pac's a fucking flyweight.


Jackamo78

Calzaghe vs Jeff Lacy. Not a single mainstream pundit gave Joe a chance against the “mini Mike Tyson”. Virtually everyone said he was getting KO’d. Yet when he put on a master class all of a sudden Lacy was just a hype job who never posed any real danger…


G_Morgan

The Lacy fight was odd as all the British pundits were taking the "finally Joe is going to get found out as we've told you he would for years" line. British boxing pundits hated Calzaghe for whatever reason. The US coverage of the fight was much more even. A lot of pundits in the US wondered if Lacy had made a mistake in picking this fight.


boxingcfo

I think you are trying to rewrite history with this one. As I remember it, it was a 50/50 fight, and when you look at what Lacy did after that fight (he basically fell off the face of the earth) it is no surprise that people are saying Lacy was just a hype job.


kaydub88

Lacy wasn't a hypejob. He got injured. Ruined his rotator cuff. Can't be lefthook Lacy without a left hook.


Jackamo78

I went back and re-read newspaper reports from the build up to the fight. Couldn’t find a single British or American outlet that gave Calzaghe a snowball’s chance in hell.


Kulafu_Kidlat

Miguel Cotto being weight-drained when he fought Pacquiao. Cotto was only one pound lighter than he was in his last fight, a fight he won.


KeepYourDemonsIn

90% of this sub now acting like they knew all along that Bivol would beat Canelo.


Small_Explorer8773

He had that weird run of beating b level fighters. I started to convince myself Bivol was b level too. Looking back on it though, Bivol has a far superior resume to Saunders it Callum Smith.


JesseDx

Bud beating Porter comes to mind. Porter was definitely past his prime but was still probably the third best in the division at the time. That was a legit quality win at 147, but I still hear that he hasn't beaten a top welter yet.


HenryXa

Porter is Bud's best win at welter but it's a bit diminished because Porter clearly had one foot out the door towards retirement and announced immediately after the fight. Beating a guy one fight away from retiring shouldn't be Crawford's best welter win, especially as he is turning 35.


PoetJustice

Stopping Porter, even if it was his dad’s call, is insanely remarkable. The guy’s chin is one of the best in recent memory


Agreeable_Net_4325

Its a good win. It does not cement your place in top 3 p4p for years to come.


THE_LORD_HERESY

The biggest revisionist history I've seen in this sub is that Canelo was green.


Ghost_comics

Yeah he's clearly red.


nahnprophet

Every Deontay fan who doesn't think he lost to Fury.


Chazdoit

To be fair I haven't really seen any of those show their face. Maybe they're all getting super downvoted?


E_Tank55

Most people in the boxing world, journalists and boxing media, thought that GGG won the second fight against Canelo too but now people try to make it seem like everyone is in consensus that Canelo won


Soya21

Media scorecards for Golovkin Canelo 2, [https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/canelo-vs-ggg-2-media-scorecards.3826867/](https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/canelo-vs-ggg-2-media-scorecards.3826867/) Harold Lederman (HBO Sports): 116-112 Golovkin Brian Campbell (CBS sports): 116-112 Golovkin Dan Rafael (ESPN): 114-114 draw Stephen A. Smith (ESPN): Golovkin won Arash Markazi (ESPN): 114-114 draw Brett Okamoto (ESPN): 114-114 draw Teddy Atlas - Golovkin won Salvador Rodríguez (ESPN Mexico): 114-114 draw Eduardo Lamazón (Televisa): 116-112 Golovkin Gareth A Davies (The Telegraph): 116-112 Golovkin Josh Peter (USA Today): 115-113 Golovkin Sports Illustrated: 114-114 draw Dylan Hernandez (LA Times): 115-113 Golovkin Lance Pugmire (La Times): 114-114 draw BoxingScene: 114-114 draw Chris Mannix (Yahoo! Sports): 115-113 Golovkin Kevin Iole (Yahoo! Sports): 114-114 draw The Guardian: 116-112 Golovkin Joe DePaolo (Washington Post): 115-113 Golovkin Mike Coppinger (Ring Magazine): 114-114 draw Douglass Fischer (Ring Magazine): 114-114 draw Mike Baca II (Ring Magazine and Undisputed Champion Network): 115-113 Golovkin Al Bernstein (Showtime Sports): Golovkin won Sherdog.com: 116-112 Golovkin Jai Bednall (news.com.au): 115-113 Golovkin Brian Mazique (Forbes): 114-114 draw Adam Abramowitz (Ring Magazine and SN Boxing): 115-113 Golovkin Tom Craze (Bad Left Hook): 116-112 Golovkin Fraser Coffeen (Bloody Elbow): 115-113 Golovkin Anton Tabuena (Bloody Elbow): 115-113 Golovkin The Associated Press: 114-114 draw Adam Caparell (Complex Sports): 116-112 Golovkin Bill Simmons (HBO and The Ringer): 114-114 draw Steven Muehlhausen (Sporting News): 116-112 Golovkin Andreas Hale (Sporting News): Golovkin won Graham Houston (Boxing Monthly): Canelo won Michael Montero (MonteroOnBoxing): 115-113 Golovkin Matt Christie (Boxing News): 115-114 Golovkin George Willis (New York Post): 114-114 draw Gary Melo (SportsNet Canada): Golovkin won Below The Belt Podcast: 115-113 Golovkin World Boxing News: 115-113 Golovkin Jeff Powell (Daily Mail): 116-113 Golovkin Marcos Villegas (Fight Hub TV): 114-114 draw Michelle Rosado (Raging Babe): 115-113 Canelo Michelle Joy Phelps (Behind the Gloves): 115-113 Golovkin Lennox Lewis: Golovkin won by 2 rounds Fight Nights: 115-113 Golovkin Michael Woods (NYFights.com): two point edge for Golovkin Dieter Kurtenbach (San Jose Mercury News and the East Bay Times): Golovkin won by 3 rounds Rafael G (the Fight City): 116-112 Golovkin 34 for GGG, 2 for Canelo, 15 for Draw average fan scorecard (1773 fans): 116-113 Golovkin


Sunwestcome

I wonder how much bias is involved in these scorecards. Tons of people were outraged at the favorable 118-110 canelo scorecard in GGG-Canelo 1, and on top of that, Canelo had popped for PEDs too. I remember the atmosphere being incredibly anti-canelo at the time of GGG-Canelo 2. I haven't rewatched GGG-Canelo 2 since seeing it live so I'm not sure how I would score it now, but at the time I thought it extremely competitive and as close to even as you can get. What did you score/think of it?


alpaca_drama

There’s definitely gonna be some bias but it’s different when you have a sample size this big, it’s less bias and everyone thinking the fight was 7 rounds for GGG or draw. I personally had it draw but if there was a winner, it was GGG


Soya21

That’s valid I forgot about that I was def biased too I was livid at the time 😂. I still think Triple G won 8-4/7-5 on rewatch


Wavepops

alot of bias imo, canelo had just popped for PEDS tho so it makes sense


dayarra

people trying to disregard that wilder was a top 3 hw when he fought fury. now they are saying fury fought nobody. everyone wanted to see who was the best btw fury, joshua and wilder who were at the top of the division by far. after fury beat wilder twice now they are acting like wilder was a nobody.


FlockxBigApe

Rigo Loma a 50/50 fight??? 😂😂😂 yea right…dude jumped 2 full weight classes and looked tiny compared to Loma


SugarAdamAli

Motherfuckers act like Roy Jones was fighting top guys in the 90s. Between Toney in 94 and Ruiz in 02 didn’t fight a fucking top dude unless you count old Virgil or montel


panadwithonesugar

Roy Jones Jr failed a drug test, looked dogshit for a couple of years like his feet were stuck in the mud. Got a decision against Ruiz and got found out when he faced Tarver..... Boxing fans "he cut 25 lbs of muscle" reality, he weighed in at 193lbs for Ruiz and would cut from high 180s to make light heavyweight... cut about 5lbs of muscle....


626_ed7

Right around the time of BALCO steroids case


KingstonHawke

It’s not revisionist if that was the narrative from the beginning. Also, it’s not about the scale weight as much as it is body composition. Cutting weight is debilitating enough. Trying to do it after adding a bunch of muscle and then losing that muscle is a big deal.


panadwithonesugar

He didn't add muscle though.... that's the point..... he done a normal camp without the dehydration. He didn't cut weight, he didn't add muscle..... only difference was he didn't have to dehydrate.....


KingstonHawke

Pretty sure Roy himself has said that he added muscle.


panadwithonesugar

he did say that.. it was bollocks.. he actaully said '25 lbs of muscle.... despite weighing 193lbs against ruiz at the official weigh in, which was roughly his rehydrated ring weight at light heavyweight.... To gain 25lbs of muscle weight would have been pushing 215lbs


QuickRundown

He definitely added muscle. You can even see the size difference.


Tekniqs23

There was an ESPN documentary about Roy's training leading up to the Ruiz fight. They showed the weigh in and Roy and his team were questioning the weight. He weighed himself again when he got back to his room. I think he weighed like 199. He said something like he's gonna punch Ruiz and Ruiz gonna go back to his corner saying 'that motherfucker ain't 193'


shibapenguinpig

Mayweather fans forgetting all the ducking and cherry picking and pretending he faced all those names in their primes. Also using the age argument instead of giving him credit for being in better shape than his younger opponents (although that's also due to his cherry picking)


billskionce

I'm with you. I always say that Mayweather fought great fighters, and he also fought guys who were in their prime. But he never fought great fighters who were in their prime.


Fit-Pollution5339

Facts. Ducked prime fighters bigtime.


Stiltzkinn

🍿


SSJ4Autism

People saying the Byrd scorecard was what tainted GGG-Canelo 1, not the fact that GGG convincingly won at MINIMUM 6 rounds


nardcore84

Well tbf at the time, most people thought GGG won but there were a good bit who thought Canelo won. The Byrd scorecard just took most the talk away from being a close fight to a robbery since that was a card that decided it. I fully believe if Byrd's scorecard was 115-113 I don't think most people would be as upset with the result. It was a close fight, you can think GGG won all you want but to say it wasn't a close fight is just disregarding the fight itself


SSJ4Autism

>there were a good bit ago though Canelo won No. Pretty much everyone had GGG winning 7-5. Any cards for Canelo were complete outliers and laughed at.


nardcore84

That's just not true, a good amount thought Canelo won. On Reddit specifically they ended up at the bottom of threads because it was taken over by "118-110 how could this happen" with every comment. You're literally just proving my point


alpaca_drama

Media scorecards for Golovkin Canelo 2, https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/canelo-vs-ggg-2-media-scorecards.3826867/ It’s not even particularly close though. Not a lot of people legit thought Canelo won, at best, it was a draw for him. It was a razor thin fight but if you go round by round, GGG winning 7 is a lot easier than Canelo winning 7.


nardcore84

https://www.reddit.com/r/Boxing/comments/70lfxt/spoilers_post_fight_thread_canelo_alvarez_vs/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share Legit the first comment is OP saying he thought Canelo won with 8 upvotes. He's a little wild with it but again proves my point


SSJ4Autism

And most were saying GGG was robbed of a win. Even Stephen A Smith and Teddy Atlas were saying GGG got robbed of a win


nardcore84

Yeah I already said that? Plus they were, again, specifically referring to the Byrd scorecard not the fight as a whole. Also even if he said it, does Stephen A Smiths opinion matter AT ALL in boxing...or anything


CaptWineTeeth

No, “pretty much everyone” didn’t think that. There was a wide spread of opinion of who won. It’s fair to say that a higher percentage thought GGG won but not an overwhelming amount.


SSJ4Autism

Here’s a summary of various boxing outlets, fans, and boxers themselves scoring the first fight. TL;DR, out of 146 votes, 9 had Canelo winning, and those 9 consisted of the likes of Chavez Jr. and Sergio Mora. Canelo didn’t even get 10% of the votes. https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/ggg-canelo-media-scorecards-compubox.593770/


Tayschrenn

Imagine downvoting a post like that, in a thread about trying to rewrite history. These Canelo stans are deluded.


cuntyeagle

Well, one judge had it a draw and one judge had it 7-5 Golovkin. Nothing wrong with either of those scores. Both non-Byrd judges gave Canelo the first 2 rounds and last 3 rounds. That's how I remember the fight, Canelo starting and finishing well but GGG winning the middle rounds. Say Byrd had scored it 6-6, it would be the same outcome more or less (majority draw) but would be far less controversial. Then the only ones who would've been crying robbery would be Teddy Atlas and the GGG fans who seem to think he won 10 rounds. Funny thing is the controversy probably helped GGG's career from a financial standpoint, as now he got to have 2 more Canelo paydays because of it. I don't think it will even affect his legacy much negatively because it seems most fans think he won the first fight.


HenryXa

There is some weird mythos these days that Lennox Lewis is some unbeatable heavyweight who would be favored against any other heavyweight in history. In reality, he lost to Oliver McCall, who neutralized his jab completely and stopped him. He struggled with Ray Mercer, earning a close decision. And he was behind on all scorecards at the time of stoppage with Vitali. McCall never really got a proper rematch since McCall self destructed hard - he was arrested 3+ times in the lead up the Lewis fight and was literally crying in the ring, yet Lewis fans parade around the "avenged all losses" trope. Also Lewis never gave a rematch to anyone he beat, so no one had the opportunity to "avenge a loss" against him, as if Vitali and Mercer didn't deserve rematches. Additionally, he gets way too much credit for beating Tyson and Holyfield. Tyson was clearly well past it, and Holyfield was never the same after getting battered by Bowe.


idowatercolours

But then you should also mention that he was way past his prime when he fought prime Vitali


gobacktoyourutopia

> Oliver McCall I agree that Lewis is overhyped on here, but saying Oliver McCall completely neutralized his jab in a fight that lasted 1 round + 30 seconds is a bit ridiculous. You'd need at least 6 or 7 rounds to make an observation like that


goo69698

The Vitali fight was close. Vitali being ahead by two rounds when the fight was six doesn't mean he was going to win. Vitali was hurt badly in the fifth or sixth anyway and Lewis was landing the right hand constantly. The cut didn't just randomly happen, Lewis was repeatedly hitting him with hard shots and it got worse every second. Lewis might've fought an old Tyson but Tyson also paid Lewis four million dollars to step aside essentially ducking him. Holyfield definitely wasn't in his prime but he wasn't too willing to get on the inside against Lewis which definitely showcased Lewis's power. Overall Lewis was very avoided throughout his career and had very convincing wins against the very best.


crackerchamp

Loma said before and after that fight that Rigo was too small, he didn't want the fight but he was pretty much forced into it.


renis_h

I feel like the most obvious one I've seen in boxing circles at the moment is people saying AJ never fought anyone good (with even Teddy Atlas saying this). This is forgetting that AJ went through fighters when they were undefeated at their time (Charles Martin, Whyte, Parker) and he has credible wins over Povetkin, Klitschko and Takam. The only fight I dont think AJ has had was a fight against Chisora, but apart from that I feel like his record is far deeper than Furys or Wilders. Its like people just saw his current losses to Usyk (probably the #1 or #2 HW around right now) and they act like he was never all that.


shutyourgob

Everyone acted like they knew AJ would lose to the quicker, trickier Ruiz after despite him being a late replacement who absolutely nobody gave a chance to


Top5Ny

Rigondeaux jumped like 3 wt classes for that fight FOH.


Bleve23

After Joshua lost again to Usyk, people continue to say how he has one of the greatest résumé’s and now that he might potentially face Fury, the narrative now is if he wins, is he the best heavyweight… meanwhile Usyk is still not getting respect for beating Joshua TWICE!


Raider7oh7

I mean ruiz is not given respect for beating Joshua once. I just don’t think Joshua is that well regarded. Him and wilder have lost some luster.


Chiphazzard

Tagging on from this, Joshua gets no credit for beating Ruiz the second time because Ruiz came in fat. Joshua would’ve beaten Ruiz just the same if he weighed 20 pounds less, he just fought the right fight.


naphthar

I think Floyd gets a lot of heat but when you look at his resume there's some big names there, and most want too far outside of their prime


ordinarystrength

Before Canelo dominated 168lb division everyone kept saying how he had no chance against top guys, and he was cherry picking people like Rocky Fielding. Once he dominated 168lb suddenly everyone he beat became a bum. I am 100% sure if Canelo had beaten Bivol too, we already be hearing how Bivol is a total euro bum with no good wins and all that .


KadariusToney_goat

Thinking Lenox Lewis is the goat


raf_diaz

your post is an example of someone trying to rewrite history. loma vs rigo was never a 50/50 match-up because rigo was 36 yrs old (likely closer to 40 or already over 40) and he came up 2 weight classes (3 if you believe rigo's natural weight class is 118 as i do). that loma beat rigo so easily was impressive but not unexpected by anyone remotely familiar w/ boxing. another recent example of re-writing history is canelo fans acting like canelo hasn't tried to age out ggg on 3 seperate occasions...


Brolonious

According to plenty of people fmj lost against Maidana, Canelo, Manny, Castillo, Judah...


samuelalvarezrazo

People thinking floyd beat pac, pac clearly schooled him from bell to bell and was the worst decision the sport's ever seen /s


HedonisticFrog

For a long time people kept saying that Wilder was terrible and the first fighter with good technique and power would beat him. A majority of people on here thought Stiverne would beat him, and then Stiverne got his face smashed in for 12 rounds and somehow survived. Wilder became a lot more popular and respected after that until the Fury fights and now it's flipped again. Boxing really seems to be very topical.


Wh0k3be

Rocky Marciano was a huge shitbag. Spent WW2 in the brig for robbery. Was closely involved with the mafia. Only the hardest core boxing fans are knowledgeable of this.


Shagrrotten

That Canelo won either of his two fights with GGG. The overwhelming consensus from the media, fans, and fighters of the time was that GGG won both fights but there are people on this forum still today who insist their Canelo won either or both of those fights.


WilderWildeWelles

People acting like Golovkin clearly won the second fight


D1skoboss

People hyping Pirog as the greatest MW of the 21st century based on his Jacobs performance alone and because he retired undefeated . Watch any fight before or after that, Pirog get touched up worse than a kid at a Neverland ranch open day. He got lucky against Jacobs, the rest of his performances were shit Edit: downvote me all tf you want, the fights are on Youtube, give them a look


X-pertwatcher

The myth of Pirog


Dr0cca

I had a friend in high school who was a big boxing fan and a holocaust denier. Best example I can think of.


DownRealBadYo

50/50 fight? Dude everybody knew he was too small