Who is seen as a ‘bad guy’ in history but was actually ok?
By - blackwraythbutimpink
Yes, the titular villain from the Mummy was a real guy, but he wasn’t a soul-sucking killer who made off with the Pharaoh’s wife. In reality, he was a skilled architect and physician who designed the famous Saqqara Step Pyramid (which still stands today). Imhotep is even considered the “father of Egyptian medicine”, as he oversaw the healthcare of thousands of pyramid-builders and wrote a detailed papyrus manuscript that described different illnesses and their treatments. Even though he wasn’t a pharaoh, he was given divining status after death due to his contributions; he was only one of two non-pharaohs to receive this title.
Iirc he put moldy bread on wounds to keep them from festering. Pretty ahead of his time..
I wonder how he learned that one
[Richard Jewell](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell). He was an on duty security guard during the '96 summer Olympics and found a bomb. He notified authorities and helped evacuate people to safety. He was then accused of planting the bomb, even though it was [Eric Rudolph ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph) who actually did it.
yep . That whole affair was a shit show, they railroaded him into the ground with almost no evidence, just grasping at straws.
And he died still trying to convince people he wasn’t the guy *even though they had already caught Rudolph…*
While it was a bit of Trial by Media, it also was very much trial by law enforcement who desperately wanted to be get all the good press for capturing the bomber as quickly as possible.
[William Murdoch](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McMaster_Murdoch) was the guy who shoots two passengers and then himself in “Titanic.”
In reality, while there were reports of an officer shooting two passengers and then committing suicide, there was nothing confirming it to have been Murdoch. In fact, Murdoch was in charge of launching life boats on the starboard side and had launched more than half of his fully loaded lifeboats before anyone else launched any. No one knows for sure what happened to him aside that he was lost with the ship.
IIRC his estate made a complaint (or even sued?) about this. In the movie we see him accept a bribe (which he later gives back but that's after the fact) and kill 2 people, while official records say no such thing. In fact, it's reported that he simply kept getting people in lifeboats during the entire event. In other words: A hero.
Now I hate James Cameron even more
I'd forgotten about this. I do remember being incredibly pissed off about it at the time the movie came out. So incredibly disrespectful and unnecessary. They could have simply made up a name, rather than attributing shitty behaviour to a real person for whom they had zero evidence of actual shitty behaviour.
Especially someone who is universally regarded as a hero in the historic record.
What's especially interesting is an apparent break down in communication between Smith and his junior officers that I wish had been addressed more accurately. Murdoch (on the starboard side) interpreted Smith's "women and children" order as "women and children *first*" whereas Lightoller interpreted the order as "women and children *only*". Murdoch would load women and children onto a boat and then any men who were nearby if there weren't enough women.As a result, most of the men who survived the sinking boarded boats on *Titanic*'s starboard side.
Who was ultimately right is unknown to my knowledge.
Lightoller, for whatever reason, thought it was better to send the boats half empty than to board any men on them.
He also opened fire on surrendering German soldiers during World War I, claiming he wasn’t about the “hands up business”.
Yeah, the half empty boats situation was absolutely absurd. It is easy to second-guess after the fact, but I think his strange rules of naval honour possibly got the better of him in this case.
See, this is one of those things where facts get muddle by the common narrative about the Titanic's sinking. It's related to the common idea that "there weren't enough life boats".
Lifeboats at the time weren't meant to hold all passengers at once. Ships of the size of the Titanic take a long time to sink, and the Titanic was on one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world. In fact, the Titanic was literally within sight of another ship when it started sinking.
The life boats were intended to ferry passengers from the Titanic to a rescue ship. If this is the strategy you're following, you don't need nearly as many life boats and you don't need to fill them all to capacity. When you're expecting the life boats to come back for a second trip, who and how many you load on each boat becomes much more of a judgement call.
Those aspects get overlooked because the common Titanic narrative spends way to much time on the number of life boats, and not nearly enough on why the Californian didn't respond to the Titanic's distress signals.
All of which is not to say that not fully loading the life boats was the right call (obviously), but it makes it a lot easier to understand how somebody could make the wrong decision.
Why didn’t the Californian respond?
The man incharge of receiving the wireless messages went to sleep moments after the titanic struck the iceberg. There’s almost no way no one aboard the ship saw the flares or light flashes from the titanic, but it was late and the Californian had already stopped for the night.
The last message the Californian sent to the titanic was “watch out there’s heaps of icebergs” to which the titanic crew responded “shut up”. Could be spite that they didn’t answer.
This was the captain's testimony: "When I came off the bridge, at half past 10, I pointed out to the officer that I thought I saw a light coming along, and it was a most peculiar light, and we had been making mistakes all along with the stars, thinking they were signals. We could not distinguish where the sky ended and where the water commenced. You understand, it was a flat calm. He said he thought it was a star, and I did not say anything more. I went down below. I was talking with the engineer about keeping the steam ready, and we saw these signals coming along, and I said "There is a steamer passing. Let us go to the wireless and see what the news is." But on our way down I met the operator coming, and I said, "Do you know anything?" He said, "The Titanic." So, then, I gave him instructions to let the Titanic know. I said, "This is not the Titanic; there is no doubt about it." She came and lay at half past 11, alongside of us until, I suppose, a quarter past, within 4 miles of us. We could see everything on her quite distinctly, see her lights. We signaled her, at half past 11, with the Morse lamp. She did not take the slightest notice of it. That was between half past 11 and 20 minutes to 12. We signaled her again at 10 minutes past 12, half past 12, a quarter to 1 o'clock. We have a very powerful Morse lamp. I suppose you can see that about 10 miles, and she was about 4 miles off, and she did not take the slightest notice of it. When the second officer came on the bridge, at 12 o'clock, or 10 minutes past 12, I told him to watch that steamer, which was stopped, and I pointed out the ice to him; told him we were surrounded by ice; to watch the steamer that she did not get any closer to her. At 20 minutes to 1 I whistled up the speaking tube and asked him if she was getting any nearer. He said, "No; she is not taking any notice of us." So, I said "I will go and lie down a bit." At a quarter past he said, "I think she has fired a rocket." He said, "She did not answer the Morse lamp and she has commenced to go away from us." I said, "Call her up and let me know at once what her name is. So, he put the whistle back, and, apparently, he was calling. I could hear him ticking over my head. Then l went to sleep."
>He also opened fire on surrendering German ~~soldiers~~ *sailors*
That's somewhat disputed but his quote about German submariners is not in dispute nor was it unusual for the time. Even before World War I, many in the (very) conservative Royal Navy regarded submarines and submariners as worse than pirates. They thought such antics were beneath (had to, sorry) the civilized nations of the world. The animosity to German submariners only increased during the war and became extremely acrimonious with the adoption of unrestricted warfare.
By 1918 when the incident with Lightoller was alleged to have occurred, U-boats had been waging unrestricted warfare for three years, mercilessly sinking thousands of ships, and killing thousands of British sailors. German U-boats were themselves accused of machine gunning Allied sailors to avoid having their presence revealed on numerous occasions.
So while Lightoller outright ordering the shooting of U-boat sailors himself or taking his sweet time in intervening if crew members opened fire is not excusable it would not have been particularly uncommon and was ostensibly encouraged as several Royal Navy officers who were accused of shooting U-boat sailors by survivors received commendations.
"From a tragic event that created hundreds of real life stories, here comes a fake one!" Honest trailers.
All the crew members were weirdly hostile in that movie.
Probably to give the audience a more corporeal bad guy than just physics
I think we as a species need to start a collective realization that physics is responsible for like 99.9999% of all human deaths and is objectively kind of a dick.
Oh gravity, thou art such a bitch.
I think I read somewhere that James Cameron said that his biggest regret from Titanic was portraying Murdoch as a killer and ruining his reputation.
There was a Nat Geo special that discussed things that were wrong with the movie (or theories that have since changed). Cameron was behind the documentary and was very up front about how much he regretted adding that subplot.
Besides, how do we know the passengers didn't ask to be shot, it sounds a better death than drowning or freezing
That’s…. A very sad truth
More so sports history, but the film Cinderella Man portrayed boxer Max Baer as a murderous psychopath who gladly killed two fighters in the ring. In reality, he was personally devastated by these deaths. In the one he was most directly responsible for, he ended up giving his winnings from his next few fights to the fighters family.
This unfortunately happens all the time in films; when they need a villain, they'll simply create one.
Too true. The one that pissed me off the most was Commander Denniston (the Charles Dance character) in The Imitation Game. The guy who's always threatening to shut down the codebreaking project. In reality, Denniston was a big believer in the codebreaking effort, he recruited Turing, and always treated him with respect.
That movie did so many things wrong.
This is why I never watch biopics. It's a guarantee that they changed something to make a "better story", but you don't know what it is. You leave the theater being wrong about something and not knowing what it is. You have less knowledge than the person who didn't watch.
Rudy's coach was a good guy, not an asshole. Josh Waitzkin didn't see many moves ahead to a win, he saw ahead to how he could salvage a draw, at which point he was declared the winner because his opponents were judged to have been more difficult. He wasn't playing Chess Draco Malfoy either, he was playing a 7-year-old. Josh was 9.
I fucking hate biopics.
The example of a Nash Equilibrium from A Beautiful Mind is NOT a Nash Equilibrium. They easily could have made some horny story that got it right. I don't understand why they fuck it up.
> This is why I never watch biopics. It's a guarantee that they changed something to make a "better story", but you don't know what it is. You leave the theater being wrong about something and not knowing what it is. You have less knowledge than the person who didn't watch.
This is why I usually do a little deep dive down the rabbit hole when I was biopics/documentaries. I specifically like to search out information on what the movie "got right" and what it "got wrong." Usually you can find it on the films wiki or imdb page. If its a subject I'm really interested in I'll watch a few different movies about it, maybe even read a book.
Argo also pointed out that New Zealand Government wasn't willing to help them, actually was bullshit. NZ Government helped as much as they could.
Movie logic: the rival of the protagonist is always evil.
And yet it would be so much more interesting if they _weren't_.
Like Tin Cup. Yes, Don Johnson's character is kind of a dick but there are times he's just a normal guy frustrated with Kevin Costner's antics. At one point towards the end the two of them seem to have some professional interaction, devoid of animosity that I really appreciated seeing.
More movies could show that side of things. Peter O'Toole's character in Troy said "even enemies can show respect". It'd be really refreshing to see that more.
Baer was also hated by Hitler because he beat the crap out of the latter's favorite boxer Max Schmeling.
I don’t know if this related to the hate from Hitler but Baer was part Jewish, and wore a Star of David on his shorts, including the time he beat Schmeling.
It's definitely related to why Hitler hated him.
Now I’m no historian, and I usually hate these conspiracy theory types of ideas, so any actual scholars feel free to correct me on this, but I have this personal theory that Hitler had this thing where he didn’t like people who were Jewish.
Woah now I'm gonna need a source on that one.
take off the tinfoil hat bro!
Schelling himself was a stand up guy who hid jews whilst the war went on.
According to Wiki, that was before the war. Might have put him on the Nazi's shit list too, because he was drafted during the war and wounded
He went on to make a fair bit of money after the war. When he heard Joe Louis was on hard times he helped him out.
And Max Schmeling saved two Jewish boys during the war. And Hitler soured on Schmeling when he refused to terminate his relationship with Jewish fight promoter, Joe Jacobs.
I love that movie, but I find it a lot harder to enjoy after finding out more about the real Max Baer.
His son recalls that years later he would occasionally break down sobbing with guilt over having killed Campbell. Just such a far cry from his portrayal in the movie.
Another movie that basically assassinated someone's character is Ford vs. Ferrari and Leo Beebe. In the movie he's a slimy businessman who is fighting against Shelby the whole time when in reality he was the one fighting FOR him and basically kept the cash running from Ford. He also temporarily split from Ford for a while to help resettle refugees displaced by the Hungarian revolution. He did want the three cars to cross the line at the same time but had no idea that would result in Ken Miles not winning the race and the movie basically makes him into a villain for that one decision.
And his son became Jethro Bodine.
Not really seen as much but Claudius was a decent emperor imo. He wasn’t quite Augustus but if you compare him to the men who preceded and succeeded him (Gaius and Nero) he was a saint
Claudius is one of my favorite Roman Emperors because from the moment he became Emperor he was just this massive goofball. Now of course this is Roman history we are talking about where the first thing you do when an Emperor dies is make up rumors about them. But the stories are so fascinating
Two of my favorites
1. He was discovered in the midst of the coup that overthrew Caligula by the Praetorian Guard because he was hiding behind a curtain with his toes poking out
2. Supposedly he would have people publicly executed and then forget and then get mad when they wouldn’t show up to dinner
Time to dust off my favorite Roman anecdote once again for its yearly post.
So, the story goes, that Claudius had a stutter. He was also very dissatisfied in the progress of a jetty in Judea. The concrete they were pouring wouldn't set under water. He got a bit pissed and ordered the architect back to Rome to answer for the delays.
So here's the architect, standing before the most powerful person in the Empire and the senate, making excuses. Finally Claudius stands up, raises his sword to the sky, and bellows "if you can't do it, I... I... I... I... I... I... I..." and the architect runs off in fear for his life.
Claudius sits back down and says "I was going to say, 'if you can't build it, I'll just do it myself.'"
He was so stupid that he reigned peacefully for many years and expanded the empire. What an idiot! Well, that's what you get for believing everything Seneca says...
He was also one of the last fluent Etruscan speakers and had written a Latin - Etruscan dictionary that unfortunately didn't survive to our days.
Richard III of England is getting a better look. They say he was actually a good king and that after he was deposed it was propaganda that ruined his name.
Came here for this. Richard was done dirty by those slanderous Tutors. In all seriousness, there was a lot to admire about Richard. At worst he was a man of his time.
I dunno anything about that guy but appreciate the "at worst he was a man of his time" comment.
I wish more people recognized that people are a product of their time. There are genuinely evil people. I do not dispute that but most people’s moral compass is influenced by the society they grow up in.
Every generation of human beings has been messed up in some way. Including us.
Some see beyond that and should be lauded for it. The vast majority don’t.
It doesn’t excuse the bad but it also doesn’t erase the things they got right.
If any of us are remembered centuries from now, they will probably view us with a certain level of disdain, and much of it will be for things we don’t question because we’ve just grown up in a world where it is considered normal.
The best we can hope for is to be one of those who see the wrongs and try to right them.
EDIT: I'm seeing a lot of responses speculating on what our age will be judged for. I'd bet money that the main criticism will be something none of us suspect.
Lucrezia Borgia wasn’t actually as much of a villainous femme fatale as she was made out to be. I enjoy the character archetype, but she wasn’t an example of one.
Her dad and brothers kept killing/exiling her husbands so that they could benefit from the newest alliance. She was *definitely* a pawn whose personal needs and emotions were ignored by her family. I always felt that some of the "Femme Fatele" attributes she did display (like her personal appearance, demands for luxury/expensive items) were the few things in her life she could control and/or use a leverage.
Many contemporary sources note that Lucrezia was not only well educated, but intelligent. In 1501 her father the Pope left her in charge of Vatican business, something he certainly wouldn't have done if she was incompetent. She was also the Governor of Spoleto in her own right and was apparently well thought of. [This article also describes how Lucrezia managed a massive agriculture project.](https://news.usc.edu/14283/A-Capitalist-Ahead-of-Her-Time/)
Captain William Bligh of the HMS Bounty. Portrayed as a monster in novels and films. He was actually a well thought of Naval Officer who when forced off his ship sailed a small craft 4000 miles with minimal provisions.When there was no suitable craft available he and his crew then built their own and sailed from East Timor back to England. He was exonerated by the courts, and had a successful career as Governor of New South Wales.
> successful career as Governor of New South Wales
the Rum Rebellion was during his time and has (though perhaps unfairly) been seen since as least partly incited by him
William Bligh, of Mutiny on the Bounty fame. In pretty much every movie adaption of the story, Bligh is depicted as a cruel slave-driver who has men mercilessly whipped for the slightest infraction, and the crew finally had enough of his tyranny and mutinied.
Utter and complete bullshit.
In reality, Bligh was notably **easy** on his men for the day, and there is no record he ever ordered a flogging. He was known to allow men on watch in bad weather to come and warm up inside his own cabin. He and Fletcher Christian had been long-time BFFs before the Bounty.
The mutiny happened because after long, hard months at sea, the Bounty had a five-month layover in the tropical paradise of Tahiti, where many men in the crew began to live ashore with native women, and military discipline started to come unglued. Bligh had to enforce increasingly-harsh restrictions, because the natives were eager for any sort of trade, and to get a little native tail, sailors were actually pulling nails out of the ship for trade. He came down hard on Christian because it was his duty to keep the crew in line and he was failing at it.
So Christian and about half the crew mutinied, and set Bligh and 18 followers adrift in a small, dangerously-overloaded boat. In one of the most mind-boggling feats of survival seamanship in history, Bligh managed to navigate the boat some 3,500 miles to safety.
A dingo actually did come and eat Lindy Chamberlain's infant child.
Unfortunately that sort of thing is extremely hard to prove one way or another and was only resolved fairly recently, 2012.
For the last 41 years people made fun of a lady whose child was eaten by a wild animal (akin to a coyote for the non-aussies).
That shit is fucked up.
Seinfeld, Simpsons, Rugrats, Modern Family just to name a couple of mass media productions that have made fun of her in their worldwide reach.
Meryl Streep played her in a re-enactment of the fucking ordeal.
I feel so bad for that poor woman.
Her kids death became a meme for 41 fucking years. Yes not 32 years, I'm saying 41 years because it still is.
Most of all I blame the Australian police and government for fucking this up and releasing the details. That shit is not right.
EDIT: **I'm glad this got some attention. Hopefully that 16K people who upvoted will go tell more people and maybe the meme will die out of sheer embarrassment. Thanks for the awards you beautiful peeps.**
For the people who still think she did it: *get over it.*
For the coyote comment: it's just how I typed it and because I live in Canada now they came to mind. I'm going to leave it as is, specifically to annoy the pedantic ppl. My local coyotes are getting fucking crazy in the local park, biting runners and taking pets this past year. Never see such aggressive and habituated coyotes.
Also, she and her husband were charged with the murder of her child. Then to add further insult to injury aboriginal Australians in the area who were helping police with the search said to the police that a dingo absolutely could have eaten the baby and that it had happened before. Despite this police still went on TV and said a dingo has never eaten a baby before in the history of ever.
Lastly, one of the young boys was sleeping in the tent with his infant sister and remembers the dingo entering the tent and taking her. Obviously, the police did not believe him.
I'm having a really hard time understanding why the officials were refusing to believe Chamberlain and the Aboriginal. I'm not from Australia so I don't know what dingos are but looking it up theyre basically wild dogs?
I've heard stories of stray dogs doing the same to abandoned new borns back in my old country so I'm not sure why anyone would put it past a dingo not to
Well they didn't believe the Aboriginal trackers because of racism. They didn't believe Lindy Chamberlain for a number of reasons, mainly because she was a seventh day Adventist which people thought was a bit cult like, and if they admitted that there were dangerous animals at this popular tourist site (it happened at Uluru) then tourists might stop coming and bringing their money to the northern territory.
Whilst now Uluru has heaps of tourism infrastructure at the time it was pretty wild and the campsites were pretty basic.
That second paragraph is a real gut-punch
If anyone is wondering why this would happen. The Chamberlains were Seventh Day Adventists, who've been mocked as cultists pretty regularly. The media launched onto them because they didn't "grieve" their child the way they were supposed to because they tried to deal with by saying it was "God's will".
Not only that there were reports that the SDA took part in child sacrifice!
The media was simply horrific on how they demonised the family.
She came to Vancouver in the early 90s after she was released from prison. Her story was absolutely heartbreaking and I can't believe anyone thought she murdered her own baby with all of the evidence to the contrary, and the dingo ate your baby jokes are disgusting bearing in mind she was exonerated by then.
The media truly vilified that poor woman because she did what she had to do to stay alive and keep her shit together instead of being the useless, hysterical woman they wanted to see wailing on the floor. She gave them one of the many faces of grief that people don’t want to see - a cold, dark, stony numbness - and for that they ruined her life.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer had a band in the show named “Dingoes Ate My Baby” as well.
I actually didn’t know where it came from until this comment, I just knew it was a common saying.
There's a whole wiki on it and the list is pretty long. I just wanted to put some of the better know ones, and the rugrats because that was actually surprising...
[This wiki is only about the saying, not the story](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo_ate_my_baby) but it just shows you how crazy it took off...
Not only that but the aboriginal people told Australian law enforcement that dingo are known to try to attack humans, but they ignored them claiming that they’ve never seen evidence of it.
A tracker and a ranger both were following tracks indicating a dingo carrying something, but the court ignored it.
"I've never seen it so it doesn't exist." add to that "and I'm going to ignore the experience of literal experts in this area that we hired for their exceptional knowledge" Is such a series of trashy excuses to ignore reality, the evidence and the testimony of both the children who witnessed it and the experts.
Part of the fucked up situation was Lindy (the mother) was grief stricken, but the general public are not accustomed to what grief looks like. There weren't many grieving mothers on the news before this.
We do however see a lot of actors on TV and in movies, so there was a huge assumption of guilt, because people believe they can spot a liar (they can't) or can spot genuine grief vs fake (people are really bad at determining this).
But now everyone is conditioned to act a certain way, so you will never really see a berieved in a catatonic state, they will always display themselves as grief stricken and hysterical if there are people watching, because we've been bombarded with social queues.
Lindy was thought to be a murderer. We should all watch footage of how Lindy portrays herself so we can understand that death is difficult and to not expect everyone to be accustomed to the same display rules during grief.
Having experienced a deep personal loss myself, I was stunned when at the funeral, having just lowered this person’s grave into the ground... I ended up completely unable to cry. I was just dry.
At the funeral of the only friend I had at the time rather closely following the deaths of half my family, I laughed uncontrollably for about 10 seconds before sobbing. I still surprised no one hit me.
The father of a young man killed in combat spent the funeral shaking hands, cheerfully greeting people, and chipperly expressing gratitude that people had come all this way to see his family.
If you thought to look you might have noticed that he was incapable of turning towards his son's casket. He walked sideways across the room rather than turn and risk seeing it. He walked backward through the doorway to re-enter the room after seeing old friends out of the viewing. Someone said "he's sure taking this will." All I could think was "No, he's *really* not."
Was at a zoo recently, a couple wheeled their pram up to the dingo enclosure and one came over and just stared at the kid for ages, its entire body language said it wanted to get the kid, it was incredibly predatory. I don't know how the parents could feel comfortable staying there for so long even with the fence in between them. No doubt in my mind while watching that dingo that it could have happened to Azaria.
I felt my stomach flop when I read this.
We took our then 8 month old to the zoo once and went by a hyena exibit, and three hyenas just full on point blank turned and stared at our kid. My husband was like, "No, I do not like this," so we quickly walked away. Deeply unsettling.
Yeah it's pretty rough.
Like, the death of your child has been used as the butt of an "Australia" based joke for decades.
The worst part is that it was nearly **everywhere** when Australia was mentioned.
Could you imagine watching a movie or TV show and then all of a sudden they're mocking you for crying over your child? I would personally be terrified to watch anything ever again for that off chance that it was referenced.
Wow I went my whole life never having heard that story although I remember the reference I Seinfeld but didn't get the "joke." Now that I've read through the relevant Wikipedia pages I'm just apalled that so many shows would make a joke out of an infant's death. This is just insane.
Not quite history, but the grim reaper. Grim isn't killing you, he's just keeping you company. He's the buddy system.
Also, people outside of Romania hate Vlad the Impaler, but in Romania, he's seen as a hero.
Just gonna leave this delightful [poem](https://www.hwlongfellow.org/poems_poem.php?pid=89) here…
> The Reaper and the Flowers
> There is a Reaper, whose name is Death,
And, with his sickle keen,
He reaps the bearded grain at a breath,
And the flowers that grow between.
> "Shall I have naught that is fair?" saith he;
"Have naught but the bearded grain?
Though the breath of these flowers is sweet to me,
I will give them all back again."
> He gazed at the flowers with tearful eyes,
He kissed their drooping leaves;
It was for the Lord of Paradise
He bound them in his sheaves.
> "My Lord has need of these flowerets gay,"
The Reaper said, and smiled;
"Dear tokens of the earth are they,
Where He was once a child.
> "They shall all bloom in fields of light,
Transplanted by my care,
And saints, upon their garments white,
These sacred blossoms wear."
> And the mother gave, in tears and pain,
The flowers she most did love;
She knew she should find them all again
In the fields of light above.
> Oh, not in cruelty, not in wrath,
The Reaper came that day;
'T was an angel visited the green earth,
And took the flowers away.
That’s why Azreal, the angel of death is still an angel and didn’t fall with satan because he simply wasn’t evil. He wasn’t someone who killed, rather he guided the souls in death. He’s the biblical equivalent of the grim reaper. Nearly every religion has someone that fills this role (Charon, Mercury, valkyries, Babi, Yama, etc). Most of the time they aren’t depicted as being evil because death is seen as being an inevitable fate for everyone.
Edit: someone informed me that Anubis is not the guide for the dead in Egyptian mythology. Babi is. He’s a giant monkey who sails the souls of the dead to the underworld with his giant penis being the mast. Apparently he’s also a fertility god...
He literally saved Romania from being a pawn in the cold war that was the 1400's
It's not that he impaled people. It's who and why he impaled them.
"They had it coming"- Leslie Nielsen
Paul Reubens. For decades of my life I was under the impression that Pee Wee Herman was guilty of some child-predator shit. But no, dude was just spotted in a porn theater. I don't think the masturbation claims were ever even substantiated. Meaning he lost his career because he legally watched porn in his personal free time.
Edit: Holy crap! That's my first ever gold! Thank you mightily, kind stranger!
His show is a treasure
Fun fact: That show started out as a road show with *Elvira*. Yes, that Elvira.
Whoa.... His show is one of the cornerstones of that era. He's the reason why blue's clues had clues.. but that show was freaking weird. The movie was creepy af. I mean I watched it a million times. I was still quoting large Marge in my teens. But weird af.
It was a very small adult bookstore too. Used to live there and passed it everyday on the way to and from work. I loved Pee Wee porno store or not!
Completely agree. I watched him for years as a kid. You may enjoy this if you haven’t seen it. https://youtu.be/zovrM0LdrZ0
Edit: glad so many people enjoyed this and thanks for the appreciation. I remember seeing this for the first time and was legit on the floor!
He was the victim of a few things...
First, it was PeeWee Herman. For the time, he was a strange, pretty eclectic pop culture personality who was well known for spending an extraordinary amount of time with children.
Second, he was involved in a sex incident. As you said, it wasn't even a heinous incident. But, it was still salacious and so easy to zero in on and draw the eye of the public.
Lastly, the whole Simpsons Helen Lovejoy "won't somebody think of the children!" horseshit christian values garbage was quick to take hold. I mean, how could he be a *role model* for my children if he's beating it in a movie theater?? Mind you, if you've ever actually seen the show or movies...you'd know that he was a kids tv personality and about as much of a role model as SpongeBob SquarePants.
But still, you load up the cannon with all that and it makes for a pretty wild explosive.
that guy from the bee movie. he was the only sane person tbh.
Tbh if my fiancé had an affair with a bee voiced by Jerry Seinfeld, I’d probably react the same way
You better hope she doesn't like jazz.
YEAH THAT GUY
Yea if my girl was goin behind my back sleepin with bees, I'd be pissed. I'd fuckin burn down the hive
KEN IS SANE!!
This is kind of a stretch but funny story. Before his death a news publication accidentally printed his obituary and they basically blamed him for so much death and destruction, being the inventor of dynamite.
So knowing what the world really thought about him and his legacy he decided to have a new will written up describing the Nobel Prize and he would give most of his fortune to that foundation to acknowledge and celebrate those who, during the preceding year, have conferred the greatest benefit to humankind.
His surviving family only got to share 0.5% of his fortune. At the time of his death he owned 93 factories and about 30% of all patents in Sweden.
So he would have been remembered as a bad guy but that wake up call changed him, his legacy, and the world.
And, crazily enough, dynamite was invented and used because it was safer than the alternatives
Unless it's been sitting in an abandoned ship in the middle of the jungle for a few hundred years. Then it sweats nitroglycerin and can spontaneously explode while you're explaining how dangerous it is to the group.
Arzt was gone too soon.
You've got some Arzt on you.
My favorite Hurley line.
Hurley had to be my favorite character. what an absolute gem. man, I need to rewatch Lost.
and dynamite is only a "Matter of time" Invention.
if nobel didnt exist we would still have dynamite around a similar timeframe.
And didn’t he invent it as an engineering tool anyway, not intending it to be used militarily? Kinda naive but still good intentions even then
yes it was a mining tool, and actually when it was first used for war it someone said something like this "war is now over because we have such a terrible weapon invented that to wage it is unthinkable"
some actually thought dynamite was so horrible/powerful/monsterous it effectively made war obselete.
that actually did become true with nuclear weapons.
The publication mistook the death of his brother, which did happen, as Alfred's death.
Not a real person but Western media has sort of equated Hades with the Christian Devil, which is very much not who he was in actual Greek Mythology. In fact, he's actually one of the most sober and well-behaved of the Greek gods - the only mischief he ever really gets up to is tricking Persephone into living with him, otherwise he mostly kept to himself and did his job.
It's funny because Zeus was basically an insane rapist and Hera was a jealous monster who loved to torment her step-children in a multitude of horrific ways.
My man Hephaestus went through it. Hera thought he was so ugly that she tosses him off mount Olympus, he lands on a beach and breaks both of his legs, then is washed out to sea to be raised by Thetis. Hera only took him back to Olympus when she saw Thetis’ necklace that he made and realized how useful he was
And after all that his wife Aphrodite started cheating on him with Ares
My son had some intro to Greek mythology in high school then he had some more years later in college. He was very interested in it the first time, but it being a somewhat Christian school they didn’t delve into it much. Now the college class was much deeper and wider in its perspective and he told me compared to the high school class the college one could be subtitled “What will Zeus fuck next?”.
TL:DR Greek mythology could be an anime called “Zeus stuck his dick in what?”
Is It Wrong To Pick Up Girls As A Swan?
Just waiting for this to be adapted into an anime where the characters call him Zeus-chan
You should check out [Dirtbag Zeus](https://the-toast.net/2014/09/25/dirtbag-zeus/) ...
Every time I think I'm finally over The Toast shutting down, a link pops up somewhere and the grieving process starts all over again.
I think Hades was portrayed very well in the video game of the same name. He just wants to do his job governing the underworld while his son keeps mucking things up (or at least making things difficult for him).
I really appreciated how the game initially leaned into the idea of Hades basically being Satan, but as more of the story is revealed, it starts to shift more into the actual Greek portrayal. As a fan of mythology that rolls my eyes at how often modern writers miss the mark on Hades, I found myself a little annoyed with the game going down that same path of Hades being evil, but once I realized what they were doing, I thought it was brilliant.
Oh yeah, he ends up being a much more sympathetic character and truer to the mythology the more escape attempts you try (or succeed).
Meanwhile the other Gods were seemingly true to themselves. Being all nice to you one moment before flipping on themselves and trying to kill you because you chose another God over them, before just dropping it altogether and forgiving you the next.
The game captures the pettiness of the Greek gods SO well! I really appreciated it because I think there are too many cultural products that treat Greek mythology incredibly seriously when a lot of it is based around the gods being really extra and acting like teenagers
[You *sure* you wanna get to know your extended family, Zag?](https://www.awkwardzombie.com/comic/its-greek-to-me)
Dresden Files also had a very interesting take on Hades, portraying him as hyper rational and territorial but basically reasonable. A lot of the stories are talked about like rumors or political fiction. Especially what happened with Demeter.
"A honeymoon free of my mother-in-law. Worth more than gold or gems."
I freaking love Skin Game
Plus in that version, he didn’t kidnap Persephone. It was Zeus’s dumb ass who thought “hey Hades seems pretty lonely down there” and kidnapped Persephone himself and delivered her as a “gift”. Which Hades thought was very disrespectful (and nearly triggered a war among the gods since her mom wasn’t in on it). Plus he has a pretty shit job: imagine spending your entire existence doing paperwork 24/7, because people don’t just stop dying when the sun goes down.
> Plus he has a pretty shit job: imagine spending your entire existence doing paperwork 24/7, because people don’t just stop dying when the sun goes down.
The thing that makes Hades great is that he actually *does* his job. If any of the other gods had been assigned God of the Dead (Hephaestus and maybe Athena excepted) it would have been a gong show, but our boi Hades just goes ahead and gets to work.
I mean he's not exactly Parent Of The Year to Zagreus or anything but he's still leagues better than any of the other gods.
Artemis doesn't even fucking show up. She's always just off hunting because she can't stand her family.
Yeah but she has dope boons so it's all good
Can you blame her?
By the standards of the Greek gods, tricking another god into marrying you is pretty small beer.
I've never heard someone use "small beer" to denote insignificance. Interesting
Most innacurate of all disney depictoins is zues the loving father
Or Hera the doting mother, particularly since Hercules was not her son
Yea Hera fucked Hercules world up. But I still love the OG Disney version and I will sing Go the Distsnce at the top of my lungs until I die.
And I'm pretty sure Hera tried to kill Hercules more than once.
oh yea, big time. made him go insane and kill his family even. Hera \*FUCKING HATED\* Heracles.
Upvote for writing “Heracles” in the same text as Hera. Both of them the Greek version.
In some versions, he didn't even trick Persephone. Ceres was being a complete helicopter mom and demanded Hades give her daughter back, so Persephone ate the pomegranate seed specifically to bind herself to the Underworld so she would have to go back once a year.
Even in the other versions there are details that at least hint it wasn’t a true bride kidnapping, but an elopement. Even without those, in almost every version, Hades first gets permission from her father (Zeus) to “kidnap” her which essentially made it an arranged marriage at the worst.
There are also cultural contexts to bride kidnapping in that era that would paint Hades in a better light at the time too. While real bride kidnapping (and subsequent rape) did happen, they were also sometimes used as a smokescreen for young couple to elope against the will of their parents.
There are a couple details in the myth that possibly hint Persephone may not have been a *completely unwilling* victim. In the *very least*, Hades sought out Persephone’s father (Zeus) beforehand and received his blessing to “kidnap” her. That detail alone would have a major impact on how people at the time interpreted the abduction.
Yes the original meaning of rape actually meant kidnapping a women, even without sexual motives. The Romans called it raptus. It’s also the same root word as Rapture
TIL that Persephone was Zeus's daughter
Almost every god/goddess was Zeus’s daughter or son. Guy put it in everything. (Except in the case of Athena, who sprung fully formed from Zeus’s skull after he had his brother Hephaestus crack it open with his hammer as a headache cure)
And she was only inside his head in the first place because the motherfucker tricked Athena's mother (his first wife, Metis) into turning into a fly while she was pregnant with Athena and then *ate her*.
[Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Devouring_His_Son)
When he lead Burkina Faso it was probably the most progressive African nation at the time, and even by todays standards it would be up there when compared to them.
He was also responsible for not only making it less reliant on France, but also it's name (which used to be 'Upper Volta'), and interestingly since he was a guitarist he also wrote the new national anthem.
He was assassinated in 1987 after a coup.
Is Sankara seen as a bad guy?
The play Mozart and Salieri (and later the film Amadeus) popularized the idea that Mozart's rival, Antonio Salieri, was a huge jerk who ultimately killed Mozart, but in reality there's no indication that Mozart was poisoned, or that Salieri had anything to do with his death. Also Salieri was a philanthropist and probably a lot more decent than theater/film made him out to be when they needed an antagonist for Mozart.
salieri was the shit!! we can thank him for beethoven, and he also taught mozart's son franz which i think is really lovely
And he was successful as well. Not some jealous failure
Well, that is in the movie. The only people in "Amadeus" who recognize that Mozart is way better than Salieri are Mozart and Salieri themselves.
It‘s so unusual to read his name as Wolfgang Mozart. I guess I never realised that in Austria, we always say Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
I've never heard anyone call him Wolfgang Mozart anywhere up until now, it just doesn't sound right
It was Antonio Salieri for anyone who sees the edited comment.
Went to Mozart’s birthplace in Salzburg—they have a whole section that basically debunks the entire Amadeus play/movie. Basically Mozart was a devoted son/husband/father who worked really hard. He was also an incredibly serious person who was well respected by the establishment. The fictional depiction in Amadeus is simply historical defamation.
> He was also an incredibly serious person
I mean, he *did* write a piece called "Lick My Ass", so there's that.
Serious does not mean without a sense of humor.
He apparently wrote this for friends; it was published posthumously.
He also was being driven mad by a soprano who did the tilt face up for high notes and down for low notes so he made a song that intentionally did octave jumps all over the place for her to perform. To be fair, that's hilarious and I'd do the same.
What a troll lol
The lady who sued McDonald's for giving her third degree burns.
She got fucking third degree burns.
She was burned so badly it *fused her labia*. All she wanted was for them to pay for her medical bills due to their obscenely hot flesh searing coffee, which had already been the subject of numerous complaints.
And it was the jury who wanted to award her with millions after they saw the horrific injury - it was reduced to a smaller amount but she was compensated with more than the medical cost. McDonald's was the one who ran the smear campaign on her if I'm not mistaken.
> And it was the jury who wanted to award her with millions after they saw the horrific injury
And to penalise McDonald's who'd been repeatedly warned that their coffee was dangerously hot.
The reason they resisted reducing the temperature was so that dining-in customers wouldn’t be able to get a bunch of coffee refills with their breakfast. It wouldn’t be drinkable until their food was almost gone.
Huh, well that probably explains why I can chug several cups of Dunkin Donuts coffee pretty quickly as soon as it's handed to me.
McDonalds coffee is still too hot to drink quickly to this day.
And they say "Oh but it's so hot for so much longer" or some nonsensical bullshit. Or "It's still hot when I get to work".
Like what the fuck is wrong with people? Why do you want fast food that can't be enjoyed for 30 minutes after it was handed to you? This pisses me off if I end up needing a fast food breakfast because I don't want to wait 30 and burn my mouth to get caffeinated...
Holy shit dude, I couldn't imagine having burned privates and then have to live with that fucked up scarring for the rest of my life. McDonald's should've bought her a house.
As I recall the ruling was that they had to pay her bills and the judge added on punitive damages of 1 day's coffee sales, which was a few million.
They appealed and the amount was dropped to $640k.
This is portrayed as 'stupid lawsuit' essentially as a smear campaign by McDonalds.
Like I said she only wanted her medical bills covered, and only sued because they refused to even do that unless forced.
They did want to cover her medical fees...... by offering a whole **800** dollars
It's only one trip to the ICU, Michael. What can it cost, $800?
Then after that you go down in history as "the dumb Karen who sued McDonald's over coffee being hot just to make a quick buck" and "poster child for frivolous lawsuits"
The whole thing is a travesty
I remember it well. I remember laughing at how ridiculous it all was. That poor woman. I feel so awful about it now..especially since pretty much the same exact thing happened to a friend of mine in Middle School. Instead of her private area though, my friend just had major burns on her thigh. Her obnoxious older brother laughed like an idiot and here she is crying her eyes out...it really made me rethink the whole Lady from McDonalds incident.
Didn't she have to relearn how to walk after that?
I also remember hearing that she died partially from the injuries and partially from the stress resulting from the lawsuit. Since McDonalds went on a slander campaign after the fact, the stress never really went down after the lawsuit had ended.
Very upsetting story. Recommend the documentary Hot Coffee (2011) which details the events. McDonald's are dicks basically.
If I remember correctly, McDonald's only wanted to give her a very small amount of money that wouldn't even cover all the medical bills and the big lawsuit was a response to the company being a dick about it.
All she wanted was to get McDonald’s to cover her medical bills. Her labia was fused shut and she suffered 3rd degree burns, requiring very expensive surgeries. She also wasn’t driving, the car was parked, her grandson was the driver, and it’s also worth noting several people had also been burned by the coffee. McDonald’s corporate just found it was cheaper to keep the coffee stored at ridiculously high prices and pay out when people got burned. The Clown’s response was to refuse, attempt to negotiate the value of her vagina in court, and then run a public smear campaign against her.
It was the judge and jury who were so infuriated they gave her 2 days worth of McDonald’s coffee sales profit.
also being in contempt, refusing to pay multiple times and finally pissing off the judge.
My bro hades is the nicest man in all of Greek mythology. He’s kind to his wife, doesn’t cheat on her, and sure, he kidnapped her, but it was ordered he did. And Persephone really likes him and they love each other. He’s always held truth to people, never cheated someone on deals, and when some dude tried to bang his wife he tortured him for all of eternity. The man is a Chad
In one version I heard, Hades was ordered to return her because her mother was refusing to let winter end and the plants grow so Zeus ordered Persephone's return. But neither Persephone nor Hades wanted her to return to the surface (Demeter was apparently really controlling and smothering). So, they started looking for a way to keep it from happening.
I cant remember if it was Eros or Hermes (I've heard Eros because he was sympathetic because they were truly in love and Hermes because he was sent to retrieve her and thought it was wrong) but they give her and Hades the pomegranate and she only manages to eat half the seeds before they're caught. Demeter then decides to punish the earth by turning it into a barren wasteland (winter) for half the year because she doesnt like that her daughter isnt with her 24/7.
BONUS: Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades couldn't agree on who would be ruler of all the Gods. They each wanted to be in charge. So they played a game to decide (dice?). Zeus, the shady fuckboi he was, cheated and won. Poseidon came in second and was made ruler of the seas. Hades came in third and was given the underworld. In an alternate version of this story, Poseidon helped Zeus cheat in exchange for not being given the underworld. The underworld is a 24/7, thankless job. It's much easier to throw some thunderbolts, fuck some bitches, and go fishing all day than make sure that the dead go where they're supposed to go and the living don't wander down where they aren't supposed to be.
Oh my gosh. That would explain why in Lore Olympus, Eros and Hermes are her right hand mans.
Anne Boleyn. When the king sets his eyes on you, you don't really get to say no. He'd already had his way with her sister and discarded her and their bastard son. So instead of being another ruined castoff she played her bad hand to the best of her ability and made herself a queen. Eventually Henry got tired of her, which was his MO, after she "failed" to produce any living sons and he'd already set his sights on Jane. He needed a viable reason to get rid of her, and what better way to do it than rumors of infidelity, incest and witchcraft? He probably would have done something similar to Catherine of Aragon if she wasn't from a royal house you did not want to fuck with.
Helen of Troy is also similarly maligned. All she did was leave her (probably brutish) husband for another man. Agamemnon didn't give a single fuck about his brother's wife (property) but her "abduction" did give him a perfect reason to go to war. Even if she'd tried to hand herself over - to almost certainly be killed by her enraged husband - it wouldn't have ended anything because she was just an excuse.
Edit: Not really trying to debate whether Helen or the Trojan War were real. That's missing the point. Go jump on all the comments about *Hades* if you want to be pedantic.
Anne Boleyn is thought to have had rh- blood. Which would make her body kill all but the first baby if they were rh+.
I could also be because she caught syphilis from Henry. Syphilis is known to cause miscarriages.
He did not:
\- Pathologically cheat on his partner \[Literally everyone\]
\- Have children with mortals \[Zeus\]
\- Do his job incorrectly
\- Try to assassinate his own children \[Hera\]
Hades just sat around and did his job, the worst thing he did was kidnap his wife, and that's not exactly morally corrupt back then, and not even true in some stories
Hell, some stories ZEUS kidnapped his wife. Western media makes Zeus seem all nice, even tho he was a FUCKING RAPIST
Rapist, incestuous, and beastophile as well. Also birthed a god-child from his mouth and ass.
But yea. Really an all around terrible being. Horrible marriage to boot.