By - ImaCroissant13
Hell no. Have you seen the north of Australia? Go ahead and invade, I’ll just kick back and let the crocs and snakes do their thing.
Northern Territory or North Queensland? Ahh they're both outback wasteland either way.
*forgets Northern WA exists*
Let the emus do it. So far they've won all wars they have been in
Emus strutting with their 100% win rate
I like to go by George Patton's thinking:
>"You don't win wars by dying for your country. You win wars by making some other poor bastard die for his country."
I'm not for dying for anyone's cause other than my own. But if I could really make a difference by dying for my country? I would.
The only cause worth dying for in war, is if your friend then can open a shrimping business
I always expect forrest gump
but do you expect the Spanish Inquisition tho?
If we were under threat then yeah. If we weren't under threat and Boris was like, "let's invade [insert Middle Eastern country]" then no.
I second this
The problem is BoJo, alongside EVERY word leader, would not just send you to Syria. They would carefully wait for the right things to happen so that it can then trigger the "I'm in danger if I don't go to war, because if I do not eliminate the problem, they will come to eliminate me".
If you look across history, especially in modern times, there has never been a war where there wasn't a "real" threat. The question is "how real is that threat and what caused that threat?". If your country held some responsibility in making things worse, well, are you still willing to go die?
It is very easy for the politicians to influence us, but I guess that's why they are paid that much, aren't they?
>They would carefully wait for the right things to happen so that it can then trigger the "I'm in danger if I don't go to war, because if I do not eliminate the problem, they will come to eliminate me"
Yeah, but anyone with half a brain can tell if someone is capable of eliminating them. For example, 9/11 was devastating. Beyond the thousands who died on that one day, tens of thousands will die from the asbestos dust that got kicked up.
However, nobody sane actually believed that the Taliban can overthrow the US government and destroy the country. People agreed to go to war because they wanted revenge.
Revenge is a fools game
Arthur Morgan - 1899
> People agreed to go to war because they wanted revenge.
Holy shit that's so true, if we all look back at the climate and words people were saying, it was blood frothing madness. In retrospect, I don't know if anyone could have held back that tide of anger. Anyone who did would have been replaced with someone who was ready to commit the troops in order to get retribution against the Taliban.
I had a friend in high school that wrote an essay in response to a 9/11 newspaper article saying that the kind of a blind patriotism and unquestioning of authority would lead to problems that we've seen so often in history. He was sent to talk to a councilor.
Man, that’s fucked.
Prophets are often misunderstood in their time
If there was a real enemy threatening to invade and kill or enslave my loved ones then yes, but for oil? not happening
I second this.
I Third World War this
I know not what kinds of weapons will be used in double dog dares, but I know triple dog dares will be settled using rocks
Rock paper scissors evolution at its finest
Then you would not die for your country but for your loved ones. Aye I could do that.
I would argue that dying for your loved ones is more 'dying for your country' than dying for oil is
Historically, dying for your country was the same thing as dying for your king. So in that sense, dying for your country is more along the lines of dying to enrich your country's leaders.
"For King and Country!"
For real, though, this is a psychologically deep phenomenon. People can attach extremely strongly to a group, and many people identify a "worthy" group by the authority hierarchy. The more rigid the structure, the more sure of their place within that structure, the more proud they are and the more their individual identity is based on the group.
So in that sense, they really are dying for their own self-identity.
As a person who does NOT share that kind of psychological make up, I feel it's very important that more people understand it so that we can adapt society to work for more "psychological diversity" instead of being constantly in conflict.
This is the right answer. Also, if a civil war broke out. But to go secure resources via bombing another country full of innocent people into the stone age? Never.
The civil war thing came to my mind just recently. I woke up in the morning and started thinking about those soldiers fighting in Syria right this moment. I'm subscribed to r/combatfootage and see what warfare looks like right there. It fucking sucks. Everything about it sucks. The destruction, the taking of lives. Those enemies that you'll have to kill may just be draftees, fathers and sons, that have their own families and loved ones.
Although I think I can take somebody else's life if it comes to it, I would want to avoid getting into that situation at all costs. Which also implies avoiding a civil war, like so many people from Syria did.
That sub does an excellent job of knocking any notion of “glory” out of war. I feel like a lot of young people envision the idea of joining some kind of American resistance movement and romantically overthrowing the totalitarian US regime or some invading superpower, something like the original Red Dawn or the second Modern Warfare game.
It seems like for most people fighting (especially the guys who are not 1st World professional soldiers with superior equipment, training, support), you’re shooting around corners at shit you can barely see, getting sniped at, having rockets and artillery fired at you or bombs go off when you’re not expecting, or getting smoked by drones. Then you get wounded and you’re on your own to put your guts back in and stitch yourself up or else bleed out in a ditch somewhere.
Hell, even looking back at the American Civil War, just misery there. Some may think of gallant soldiers marching into battle defending their homeland, but in reality it was like any other war, filled with sweat, blood and tragedy. The romanticizing of war is a dangerous thing, it’s sad that some will have to live through one to learn that.
Hell, look up on Youtube "Cold Mountain - Battle of the Crater" theres the "glorious war" everyone sees as the Civil War
There was a post years back on Reddit that was discussing this in the context of the Civil War. In particular there was a lot of romanticized glory around combat, particularly in the south. The generals and whatnot largely knew, if only academically, that things were not quite so pretty, but it made for a good show back home.
And so this was part of Sherman's march, to deliver not a taste, but a full course meal of what modern combat was like to the people of the south. The objective being to forever shatter the romantic view of gentlemanly combat that was being fed to the public of the south. To show them that it wasn't just glorious fighting for one's country, but dirty, disgusting, horrifying stuff that left all sorts of casualties in its wake. The hope being that if this was done correctly, the South would simply just not have the stomach for a generation or two to even consider the possibility of a second rebellion.
It wasn't done to teach a lesson, but to win. His scorched earth tactics were foremost to supply his own troops and secondly to leave nothing behind that the opposition could use against him. It was brutal, unexpected, and highly effective. The idea of 'noble combatants' was severely damaged. It took the trench warfare of WWI to finally kill that notion.
>knocking any notion of “glory” out of war
I'd just like to take this to remember one of my [favourite poems of all time](https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46560/dulce-et-decorum-est). It truly gives a very vivid picture of what war feels like for the soldier. It's not the euphoric glory that many supposed "patriots" like to promote.
He died 1 week before the Armistice.
His parents were notified of his death the same day the public learned that the war was over. Absolutely heartbreaking
I knew before even clicking the link it would be Owen. The old lie, told over and over.
>I feel like a lot of young people envision the idea of joining some kind of American resistance movement and romantically overthrowing the totalitarian US regime or some invading superpower, something like the original Red Dawn or the second Modern Warfare game.
I knew of a few people who joined the military that thought it would be awesome because they played call of duty a lot. Honestly sometimes I think there may be some kind of conspiracy there by the military funding war style video games.
The DOD does help fund the development of these games and offers consulting for design, they also pay billions of dollars a year to the major sporting leagues to honor the troops and do flyovers.
They produce their own fps series!
I recently discovered the podcast “It Could Happen Here” by Robert Evans. It’s a really good almost academic look at how a second civil war could break out in the U.S., interspersed with “your” story and what happens to you during the war.
Can’t recommend enough!! Also can’t link because I’m on mobile, but you should be able to find it easily
Would you do it for bananas?
Seeing that I eat two bananas ever morning, you know what yeah. It’s war
This guy bananas
That's a strong no. No politicians are willing to work for the country. Losing my life for the war created by them is nothing but vain.
Anytime two countries want to start a conflict, both cabinets should be airdropped into a thunderdome and forced to fight to the death over it. Party of the last survivor wins.
Sounds like a great Black mirror episode.
And there would never actually be any wars then.
Why, you could never get a war off the ground that way!
Because you gotta want it more. That’s what coach always says.
Solve inter-nation arguments with a chess match. No war, no one dies, and there's still a winning side instead of trying to hash out a consensus for years or decades.
No. Not inherently. Dying (and worse, killing) simply 'for your country' has been the anthem of leaders sending the young and terrified to die in battle for centuries.
I would, however, die for the people I love, the places I choose to make my life in and the core ideals I consider most important for the benefit of mankind. At the very least, I'd go into battle for them. What I'd really be thinking just before I die is unknowable to me - maybe I'd regret it all. I dunno.
“Dying is easy. Living is harder.”
Death is light as a feather. Duty, as heavy as a mountain.
Edit: Thank you for my gilding. It’s been a rough time and seeing all of these people commenting obviously as much in love with these books as I am makes me so incredibly happy.
Til shade is gone, til water is gone, Into the shadow with teeth bared, Screaming defiance with the last breath. Tai’shar Earth.
Edit: Thanks for the gold. It's my first time getting one.
"Will he ride alone?"
I want a promise from you... That you'll ride to Fal Moran before you enter the Blight, and that if anyone wants to ride with you, you'll let him.
The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. And we are only the threads of the Pattern
*nearly dead yesterday, maybe dead tomorrow, but alive, gloriously alive, today*
I’m not crying you are
*folds arms under breasts*
#Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker Flicker
I win again Lews Therin
I WIN AGAIN, LEWS THERIN
Tai'shar my ragtime gal
The Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gaidon!
I'm not crying you're crying.
It was Nynaeve's speech in Kandor when she first started recruiting for Lan that really turned on the faucets for me.
Lan > Aragorn.
There I said it.
I didn't come here to win. I came here to kill you.
Just gave me a chill through my whole body.
Just got to that part in Towers of Midnight. *chills*
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
“What is the most important step a man can take? The next. Always the next.”
Wrong book, storm it.
Blood and ashes...
Dammit, now I need to read those books again. Better clear my calendar through the end of the year.
Not related to dying for your country, but as someone who had a brush with death not too recently, I agree completely.
Upvote for the Hamilton reference.
Having almost died from blood loss, I was definitely thinking that it wasn’t worth it
In defense of my people, sure. Attacking to give my people an economic advantage, no way.
There’s a big difference between dying for your country and dying in the name of it. Would I die to advance our medical knowledge or environment or something? Sure. Would I die because some politician got angry at another country? No thank you.
The problem is they trick you into thinking the second thing is actually the first.
Something something weapons of mass destruction something something nukelar something something patriot.
16 years later... Afghanistan Papers et al
Vietnam had nothing to do with preserving my freedom, in fact the only beneficiary was whoever supplied the weapons.
The war started with the colonial French government fighting for preservation of their colony iirc.
I don't know a ton about it. I know that it was supposed to "curtail the spread of communism".
Yeah the French were fighting vietnamese communists as they were trying to retake control of the region post WW2. The French eventually quit in 1954 and the US was then the support of the south vietnamese forces.
"those guys are taking babies out of incubators and killing them for fun! They are all monsters! "
What if they attacked first, the attack is repealed and now your country want payback. Something like russia in ww2
That's not really payback as its ending the threat of the invasion, if you just push them back to the border then theyll just regroup and try again.
I think if I survived an enemy invasion that killed 80% of our nation's men I'd probably be out for blood.
Many were and it was brutal. I remember watching an interview with a german veteran describing close combat and he basically said "if you were fighting against a British solider or an American and you were both out of ammo you maybe give a sign and got away. Against the Russians it was just hate hate hate".
Rape was common too as revenge from the Russians and you probably won't find a village in eastern Europe/Germany that didn't see a case.
I'm from Hungary, and my mother told me that, to escape being raped, many young women at the time, including my great grandmother, would hide in haystacks. Once the Russians found out about this, they started setting haystacks on fire, forcing women to make a tough choice of getting raped or getting burned to death.
Why is rape so common in war? I mean these dudes are still horny after seeing the brutality unfold around them?
Rape, especially in wartime, usually has little to do with arousal and is more about exerting control and releasing stress violently. In WWII, Japanese soldiers would rape women with objects because they had already raped others to the point of physical exhaustion, but still felt that the goal of dominating the local population had not been achieved.
It's not about being horny, it's about power.
Sometimes it's a power trip, a chance to continue perpetuating control over another person after the rush of having people's lives at your fingertips.
Sometimes it's retributive, to punish the populace for supporting the enemy or to legitimise the view that they're less than human (because of the [social stigma](https://www.peaceinsight.org/blog/2013/05/why-is-sexual-violence-so-common-in-war/) victims suffer). In certain conflicts rape can become a [normalised weapon of war](https://www.mukwegefoundation.org/the-problem/rape-as-a-weapon-of-war/), just as armies of history might have torched croplands or decimated a town to subjugate the populace.
Sometimes it's a psychological release, to engage in ultimate pleasure after the adrenaline of conflict - and to cope with the trauma of fear and suffering by re-inflicting those experiences on another living being.
But there's doubtless other reasons as well. Perhaps people who hold deeply regressive views on gender and masculinity, or who lack empathy for others, or who hold hypersexualised thoughts are more likely to be accepted into military (who want all the manpower they can get in conflict) than in mainstream society, which might legitimise their beliefs? Perhaps in a violent theatre of war "might makes right" is a more acceptable belief than in civilian life? Perhaps perpetrators believe that they're less likely to face prosecution in the chaos of a warzone?
Another factor is something called "[combatant socialisation](https://arcgs.uva.nl/content/blog/arc-gs-events-blog/cohenlecture.html?cb)" - which is a psychological phenomena where people bond with others when they commit violent or morally unacceptable acts together. It's not uncommon in the... less regulated battlefields (think Joseph Kony and the like) for leaders to encourage new soldiers to commit atrocities together. The idea is that perpetrating is in itself traumatic, and so you're most likely going to want to reach out with the only other people to have experienced something like that - i.e. your squadmates. Not only does that promote camaraderie, but as a "bonus" your troops are less likely to defect back to society with a war crime hanging over their heads.
What would you do if choice was given?
I would die for my friends and family. I wouldn't die for my country, it doesn't care for me individually. I just happen to live here
Friends and family: “uhhhhhh, yeah we care for you” *bites lip and slowly looks away*
Damn bro. Right in the insecurities
I feel attacked and this wasn't even directed at me
I don't think anyone would direct something towards a frostie sphinctor
You don't know me
Random internet stranger here. I care for you, u/peppermintgun. You exist as a person, not a snail or an ant. I hear you and think the world is just a bit better with you in it. :)
hey there guy don't besmirch the good name of snails
you can bring /u/peppermintgun up without knocking snails down
Oof, you're right. This is a crime against escargots.
You guys are lovely
I would die for my son. That's it. And he's not going anywhere overseas to fight for some other country's "freedom", or for oil, or anything else. He and I have already had that discussion.
perfectly sums up my thoughts!
My country? No.
My friends and family? Which ones?
Even for some of my beliefs and ideals but the country in general? No.
If my country won't die for me, why should I die for it? Fuckin mooch.
Ask not if your country will die for you, ask who your country will kill for profit.
Literally anyone that stands in it's way. And some completely innocent people just for the hell of it
Edit: for clarification I was saying who my country would kill. Not who I would kill for my country
I love this
Ask not what you could die for your country — ask what your country can die for you.
-JFK via the internet
JFK via the internet
I got it from dying in Call if Duty Modern Warfare 2. Great advice to give me after I just died
If I die for my country it will be on accident while trying to stop my country from killing my friends.
>My friends and family? Which ones?
This. Half my family is legit nuts. On my moms side they are dead, in jail, or unknown. On my dads side they are Bipolar, depressed, psychotic, or just plain ole nuts. I'm lucky to only have inherited depressed!
I feel you my G, families are fucking tough ones.
You need to talk/shout/rant then my inbox is always open
For creepy uncle sam
Does dying mean freedom from this ?
Defensively: probably. If you are defending home and family it makes sense
Offensively: hell no. How many offensive wars in history were justified? I die trying to kill some other guy just defending his home so some aristocrat a thousand kilometers away can have his moment?
Hey buddy, my country fought an entire war so we wouldn't have to use kilometers as a measurement!
I would die for inches and miles
*Also Inches and Miles are cool dog names I feel*
That was defensive though, if Canada was invaded by Russia we would be helping them
Meh, that's just a delay. They would have been attacked anyway.
No. I’m too much of a scaredy cat.
Keep it real
Don't start none, won't be none. - Lao Tzu
If you don't give, we don't give - Mao Zedong
As a Hongkonger, I would die for my people against my ‘country’.
I feel for your people.
Yes, to defend it.
No to attack another country.
What if another country said that your mom is fat?
Then tell them your dad is the CEO of Microsoft
Well my dad is the CEO of PC
Well, my dad was vengeful and jealous Semitic deity who forced an entire nation of people to worship him exclusively in exchange for freeing them from slavery by murdering the first-borns of their oppressors...
My mom is fat. That’s like saying she has brown hair. Checkmate, bully.
Then I'd just call their mom fat and call it a day
Out of curiosity, how do you define defend?
When boots are on your territory? When someone is planning a threat? Cyberwarfare. Taking out possible enemy positions preemtivly on foreign soil? Taking action on foreign soil to support an ally or stabilize a dangerous situation. Eliminating terrorist threats on foreign soil?
The reason I ask is because some people mean boots on the ground while others use it to mean invading iraq.
I have two quotes by Bertrand Russell for you:
“Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.”
“I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong.”
I know nothing about him but someone willing to admit that he might be wrong has a lot to teach to many of us.
He is one of the better known philosophers of the 20th century, who is especially known for his work on mathematics and logic though he also received a Nobel Prize in literature for his political writings on freedom of thought and humanitarianism. He was an anti-war activist and even was imprisoned at the age of 89 for taking part in an anti-nuclear rally.
He also happened to be rather a dick in his personal life, and very vain. But he was certainly a smart guy, very influential in logic and the foundations of mathematics, philosophy, and fought against nuclear proliferation.
I live in Finland, and i coinsider it a country worth dying for, so yes
The question hits pretty differently depending on where you live. When we are talking about defending Finland, we are talking about a situation where a small country known for it's well-being, happiness and progress is being attacked by a corrupt and oppressive mafia state with population almost 30 times larger. The original question sounds very different if you are an American with knowledge about the recent history of American military involvement than it sounds for a generic Finn.
Finns aren’t openly that patriotic but when it comes to defending this land we are fucking mental. We have had this discussion many times in school and with my friends and basically everyone says they would give their life for this country.
I mean y'all sound pretty epic
Every time I hear Finland, I imagine about a bunch of 14 yo racing around the streets at 300km/h. Ngl
I mean it is true... With their loud-ass mopeds.
Can I come? I'm unhappy about my country.
Nah. I'm not dying for an oil company
As in, would I die to make a few rich cunts in my country slightly richer? No. No I would not.
And, in extension by pure philosophy, is a man with 300bn richer than one with 200bn? If you can buy anything, can you get any richer?
> And, in extension by pure philosophy, is a man with 300bn richer than one with 200bn? If you can buy anything, can you get any richer?
Yes, because he can buy 100 billion [insert your local currency] worth of stuff more than the other guy. But, it's still pointless though.
I'm only here because an ancestor of mine deserted the German army to avoid WWI.
I'm even less patriotic than he was.
What country did he immigrate to? To be honest who wouldn't desert WW1? What a worthless war...
Absolutely not. I’ll fight tooth and nail for my family, but that’s it.
For Finland I would. My great grandfather died in the winterwar and is part of the reason I get to live here. I'd do it for my loved ones.
I am of Finnish descent and I madly respect the patriotism of Finn's. Do you think it is because of the "forced" military? I always thought that was cool too. Get to experience and learn a lot of things when you become an adult.
Some of my in-laws are citizens and have gone and done the 6 months and have great stories to share from their time. I was also a citizen, but gave it up because I didn't want to fly overseas to do the 6 months in the military, especially because I don't know more than 10 Finnish words.
Hell no. Its a random assortment of strangers, a government I have no say in and a flag I don't care about.
Why don't presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave the peril to the poor
I miss the old days when king led charges into battle. A leader should prove his worth this way
Would love to see Bojo and Trump lead the charge in a war against Putin and Pooh.
The way you put that is so poetic
What do you mean that song isn't about partying?
Elite music taste detected
Whose lyrics have been apt lately.
Battalions of riot police
with rubber bullet kisses,
Service with a smile
pushing little children, with their fully automatics.
Hell no. I don't even love my country. I'm desperate to leave this shithole.
I'm curious where you from?
I enlisted for the violance and mayhem.
Ended up walking kids to their new school.
Pulling security for free and open elections.
Rolling into poor hard hit areas and passing out medicine food and water.
I watched my corpsman cry after trying to save a small child who got hit with shrapnel from an RPG 7.
We basically secured an entire city and brought commerce back.
I watched my friends bleed for that city, for these people.
Yknow we maybe made out to be blood thirsty trigger happy murderers, but to us... We really wanted to make a difference where we were. Perception is reality I guess.
We won every battle, completed every task and mission... But still lost the war.
But what does that matter? The blood I shed in the sand is my story, regardless of what influencers say, I know what i did, my boys know what we did, what we sacrificed, for people who arent even our country men.
Would I die for my country? I'm not sure... But I was willing to die for theirs.