T O P

What will happen to my pet tortoise in an anarchist society?

What will happen to my pet tortoise in an anarchist society?

partywerewolf

I like turtles


Wonderful_Diamond_57

Tordulls*


Fireplay5

Tor-dulls*


laketax

turtle-ducks\*


Bobarosa

Go for a swim and find a turtle, we're talking about tortoises


melivia_

>Come, crown my brow with wreaths of myrtle! > >I know the tortoise is a turtle. > >Come, carve my name in stone immortal! > >I know the turtoise is a tortle. > >I know, to my profound despair: > >I bet on one to beat a hare. > >I also know I’m now a pauper > >Because of his tortly, turtly torpor. – Ogden Nash


MezzoConfusion

All tortoises are turtles, but not all turtles are tortoises.


ILikePVT

i bet they like you too :)


TheGreatBatsby

Jonathan! Dressed up as a zombie!


nesagwa

He will get as many of the ugly vegetables from the local co-op as he wants.


plsdontkillmee

You will be forced to dye their shell red and yellow comrade /j


highschoolgirlfriend

for mcdonalds


plsdontkillmee

Mcommunism


highschoolgirlfriend

the golden anarches


plsdontkillmee

🅱️ruh


PizzaBeersTelly

This thread...I’m lovin it


plsdontkillmee

HaususneiksbsjxygshqgebxkJhwhbxbqunBaiJAbdhsppvpnslL


Red-Direct-Dad

Paint it blue. Aim for the 1%.


iadnm

I don't know, you're the one that cares of him, so it's up to you.


ItsOnlyJoey

Good I didn’t know if I would have to give it away or something


DecoDecoMan

Why would the absence of authority and hierarchy mean that you can't take care of a tortoise?


WellThatWasStrange

Maybe they boss their tortoise around and steal the tortoise's surplus labor.


-self-interest-

If that is true then take the tortoise away


New_Hentaiman

that is the wrong way, we have to teach it so it can liberate itself!


-self-interest-

NO ANPRIM


BigTrans

OP literally exploits his teenage mutant ninja tortoise and steals his surplus labour but go off I guess


barracero

vegan alert :P


hydroxypcp

Actually, the tortoise steals others' surplus labour by being given food it didn't work for. That bougie rat! E: sorry, didn't see how old this post was.


admirelurk

Anarchism is when the state kills your pet turtle, obviously.


Dovahkiin1992

Several people expand that to nonhuman animals.


AlmostBlue618

either way, inherently no one is going to *make* you do anything with your turtle in an anarchist society, regardless of their thoughts on you having it


johannthegoatman

I would definitely try to liberate someone's tortoise if I thought it was unjustly imprisoned


DecoDecoMan

Caring for another person or animal isn't authority. And, really, I don't know how you could extend it to that. Most animals do not obey commands for the sake of it. They generally need some kind of conditioning at most and, at worst, won't obey at all; their obedience is only temporary. You can't construct something like a state or capitalism around animals.


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syndic_shevek

Pets and food are two very different things.


WontLieToYou

Tell that to PETA.


syndic_shevek

PETA is neither vegan nor anarchist, so I'm not sure how they're relevant here.


Puppaloes

Are you one of those people who thinks PETA murders pets willy-nilly?


PJvG

> Most animals do not obey commands for the sake of it. They generally need some kind of conditioning at most and, at worst, won't obey at all; their obedience is only temporary. It's the same with people tbh


kistusen

Not really. Humans actively reproduce states and hierarchies, they even get offended when someone suggests something else. Our conditioning goes much deeper.


PJvG

Yeah, well, I can give commands all I want but most people really don't obey me. ;)


kistusen

I think this conditioning is more visible in groups rather than individuals. Most people don't really want to be commanded by other individuals (so they don't obey me or you :( ) yet they're insistent that we need elected representatives or (at best) different forms of democratic institutions to give commands and enforce - they usually don't want to be commanded by people unless those people are of certain position as if this position was separate from an individual. Most people can't even imagine non-totalitarian workplaces :|


fatchicken17

Some would :3 ;)


RainforestFlameTorch

> they even get offended when someone suggests something else Why do you think that is?


kistusen

I wish I knew exactly why, it would make talking about anarchism way easier. I think most are just conditioned to believe in authority because that's how the world works right now at home, at school, at work and almost everywhere else. For many lack of authority means chaos and weakness, rampaging murderers, no rights for minorities, blood feuds, war of all against all (fuck Hobbes) We also barely notice existing anarchies which are just as prevalent. It's hard for me too so I don't blame others for having a hard time with this concept.


DecoDecoMan

No, not at all. Humans will obey other humans, provided that they justify themselves accordingly, and they will do so for the sake of obedience rather than to get some treats or something. As a poster below says, we actively create and reproduce hierarchies. This can explained, in some part, due to how social groups or systems with similar institutions, norms, or practices can reinforce each other in a number of ways but this further distinguishes us from animals who generally do not possess the same kind of institutional inertia that we are capable of. Perhaps we should treat humans as humans and animals as animals. Of course, the line breaks down further. We can't treat cows as bats for instance. The point is that we shouldn't treat each other as exactly the same because we aren't but differences do not constitute hierarchy.


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DecoDecoMan

I have no idea what this has to do with primitivists. Primitivists are the last people to care about animals considering their preferred way of life demands animal consumption as a part of their greater romanticization of the past. If anything, it has more to do with vegans or, at least, the lazy sort of vegans who want to tie everything they dislike under the veil of authority. I also don't know what this has to do with material conditions either. The term "lifestylist" does remind me of Bookchin which is ironic because if anyone was into abstractions it was him.


-self-interest-

Primitivists also want to eat berries and shit I think


Orngog

A lot of tortoises are poached, it's a bit of a problem. Looking after a pet is fine, the question is one of aquisition. And I think there is a discussion to be had about claiming dominion over animals in an anarchist society. Obviously giving away pets is not necessary, but new pets (or farmed animals of any sort, I guess) is something we could talk about.


BasiliaChopin

I am strongly for pet ownership, but holy shit, breeding, WOAH. There's a world of problems there. Humanity breeds things that are born dying just because it is amusing.


Orngog

Yep. So how do we square anarchies with regulating puppy breeders? One thing that immediately comes into focus is the need for transparency in such systems, for example do we want to check how our bread is made? My suggestion would be an eternal tour in every working property, but that's just me I suspect.


BasiliaChopin

No I was thinking of something in a similar vain. I think that it should pretty much be an open facility. Come visit the critters! The work should be volunteer! Animal care should be a more open thing. The degree of specialization and closed doors allows so much of the abuse.


Orngog

Makes sense, I've been saying this about healthcare in general for years- I didn't make the leap! We need to open up sectors for volunteer work, and redefine on-the-job training (and redefine job titles) so that nurses can become


CaJoKa04

Are you being serious


lheinle

Why ?


chasewayfilms

Obviously we will let them animal decide if the animal wants to stay it can if not then it can leave I would also argue you have a right to decide if you want to leave with it and you both can be on the open road together in a form of symbiosis (Holy shit this is a great cartoon waiting to happen


Makecomics

Have you tried educations your tortoise on anarchist theory? Helping them understand anarchism would allow them to choose what they want to do in an anarchist society, and they might have some worthy contributions of their own! /j


OBO2002

Tortoises are notoriously right wing libertarians so don’t bother. They’re mostly harmless but annoying


Mors_Vincit_Omnia2

That's a terrible generalisation, I've met several tortoise who were ardent Ancoms.


lasiusflex

those were turtles


New_Hentaiman

The turtle bias is strong in this sub :o


Mors_Vincit_Omnia2

Actually the only turtles I've met were Maoists.


Eotheod0092

We will ride the tortoises into battle.


LouSkyze

https://external-preview.redd.it/DxO\_QsiZ9epZ8GKnxbtKdZfQrfgyJ2QPui03f8Hipio.jpg?auto=webp&s=c725dd64814481a7ac4daefa9d968c75ee05e139


mathemagical-girl

error 403 forbidden given what you're responding to, i am very curious what image you were trying to share.


LouSkyze

https://uploads8.wikiart.org/images/m-c-escher/castle-in-the-air.jpg!Large.jpg


deviantbyblood

Hell yeah


Duke_Nukem_1990

In an anarchist society we wouldn't continue ti exploit our non-human comrades, so no. Edit: lol speciesists keep downvoting this comment, great job


Eotheod0092

It's just a joke. Tortoises are too slow for combat anyways. We'll have chariots pulled by rabbits.


BasiliaChopin

Everyone knows tortoises are for carrying the continent of North America. Reject USA and Canada. Embrace Turtle Island. Unless that turtle isn't a tortoise... In which case I imagine they are just pets!


Toralar

tortoises aren't good for riding into battle, it's just a joke


xgettes

he will be loved and appreciated


apocalypseconfetti

Is your tortoise a capitalist? Cuz that could be problem.


ItsOnlyJoey

He lets me rub his head no matter how much lettuce I give him so I don’t think so


apocalypseconfetti

Good fellow. He can stay.


TilDaysShallBeNoMore

He shell be free to set up a tortoise commune with his fellow comrades of course!^(/s)


thatbetchkitana

Well, I expect my cats will be the same as always: the kind of lazy moochers that the right fears. I'm sure your tortoise will be fine.


Mors_Vincit_Omnia2

All cats are individualist anarchists in the vein of Stirner.


shoemanship

I will pet him on the forehead & feed him some lettuce


Mors_Vincit_Omnia2

Humans had companion animals long before the state and Capitalism, I don't see why that would change under anarchism. In fact, some of the closest societies to anarchist ideals, egalitarian 'hunter-gatherer' societies often have many 'pets'.


brianapril

Absolutely nothing. Releasing any house pet, even an "outside cat" in the wild is very dangerous and they would probably die. Some become invasive species though (so then native animals die). Best is to keep your pets, since you're literally the best person to take care of their needs. I'll add that this also applies to farm animals and cattle, as they were bred for exploitation and cannot survive on their own. Plus, any ruminant is source of tremendous horsepower and digesting ability that can help with reforestation. They can also be used to restore permafrost, for example Sergueï Zimov using various sorts of large winter resistant mammals in his scientific research station/park.


davesreddit123

Your turtle will have to fend for himself https://www.reddit.com/r/aww/comments/m4zh7j/lion_being_patient_with_a_curious_turtle_while/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


_BringBackPluto_

Very cute!!


CarlSeeegan

I will ask to see him


Jeereck

Prob be elected to the head council on account of being the least likely to perpetuate social hierarchies.


Toralar

I'd vote for him


Magnus_Carter0

If your turtle is sick, you would be able to easily access an animal healthcare center in order to deal with it. If we are talking about an ancom society, and perhaps some other forms of anarchism, this would be free of cost. I can't think of much else. I do think that an anarchist society would conceptualize the relationships between humans and nonhuman animals differently. I think the concept of "pets" and animal ownership would be faced out and replaced with some sort of "animal companion" concept. Sort of like a more radical version of Aang's animal guide being Appa (from Avatar: The Last Airbender).


ExcellentNatural

The best answer in my opinion. Just getting rid of all pets like some people are suggesting is not a solution as many types of animals are domesticated to the point where they could not live by themselves anyone. Instead we should put more focus on our relationship with animals, try to find a way to live together in a way that works for all of us.


BasiliaChopin

You've reminded me of the way my Grandfather spoke of the animals nearby, as his friends. He was on first name basis with both the rabbits and the coyotes. I want a world where everyone can be like that. Yip yip to your world friend, yip yip.


BasiliaChopin

You've reminded me of the way my Grandfather spoke of the animals nearby, as his friends. He was on first name basis with both the rabbits and the coyotes. I want a world where everyone can be like that. Yip yip to your world friend, yip yip.


MarxTheMemer69420

This is the best and most wholesome questionI have ever seen here. OP’s responses are S-Tier


PM_ME_UR_GOOD_IDEAS

To ensure the survival of our endeavor, we ask that your tortoise serve a brief tenure as a mobile artillery platform for the revolution. Then he can chill and grow moss on his back or whatever tortoises like to do.


NotQuiteListening

You will have to set him free so that he can find his brothers and learn karate in the sewers.


doGscent

It'll be safe for him to go outside


Sky-is-here

Realistically. It would stay in your house being happy, maybe having better food and making everyone happy too


chartheanarchist

It's really up to you. Some people say we shouldn't have pets. Others say that pets are a natural relationship that benefits both parties. So really, of you feel that they're better off with you then it's up to you what to do with them


-self-interest-

Nothing at all


usernametaken_1984

What about my birds 🤔 They're already free to fly away, but they never do 🙃


vilejackass

Train them to lead a tortoise rebellion /j


completionism

This is the best question asked on this sub in a while, for real. Anarchist chickens turn into anarchist coyote poop. Some people are ridiculous around here.


hipsterTrashSlut

Whoa whoa whoa, are you implying that some people around here haven't thought through the implications of their goals? Next you'll say that pets are better off as slaves! ^/s, ^lmao


completionism

> Whoa whoa whoa, are you implying that some people around here haven't thought through the implications of their goals? When someone's version of "anarchism" is basically just "fuck you, dad, you're not the boss of me!" with a few Proudhon quotes slapped on top to make it feel grown-up, I guess my expectations are too high?


hipsterTrashSlut

25 years ago, they were the people at RATM who thought the machine was their mom.


dumnezero

That doesn't have to be incorrect, it may be the rule in families with conservative parents. When kids get kicked out for being "disobedient" (i.e. queers, non-Christians, even vegans) the mom is not some passive furniture in the discussion.


Orngog

Yeah, except 25 years ago they didn't exist. Should we *have* the conversation about animals in an anarchist society?


hipsterTrashSlut

Are you saying RATM didn't exist 25 years ago? Or are you meaning something else? I mean, I can share my point of view, if you'd like. It's not a vegan one though.


completionism

I choose to believe they mean the people posting all this identity-politics-hiding-under-anarchism stuff didn't exist 25 years ago. I really hope.


BasiliaChopin

"Identidy politics hiding under Anarchism"?


completionism

Yes, like the "I'm only interested in anarchy because I'm currently marginalized but anarchy means I wouldn't be marginalized so that's cool, but I don't know anything about it beyond that it's just convenient for this other thing that I actually *am* interested in" kind.


BasiliaChopin

I fully invite those people. Telling a person who hates oppression they aren't allowed in because they haven't read enough books is silly.


Fireplay5

Some of the comments are eggcellent.


Dannzsche

he will be rename 'torstoy'


ayden3a

One school of thought, primarily associated with anti-civ and vegan anarchists, called anti-domestication would seek to end the process by which you your tortoise (the ideology that allows us to treat other living (and even non living for some people such as myself) as property or as lesser.) Animal liberation groups often try and achieve this by freeing animals which have been imprisoned or by attempting to stop humans from harming or imprisoning animals.


ItsOnlyJoey

I don’t think my tortoise really minds being in my house, all he does is sleep under the couch and come outside to munch on some lettuce


Reece1492

What kind of turtle is it?


ayden3a

I think it obvious that one would be skeptical of the imprisoner speaking on behalf of the imprisoned.


ItsOnlyJoey

I give him time outside every day


ayden3a

Human prisoners are also sometimes let out to "rec yards"


ItsOnlyJoey

I don’t think human prisoners get free head rubs My tortoise loves his head rubs


SOCOMcopper

You can consider activities head pats in that scenario where sports crafts and television would be the substitute for pats


blueskyredmesas

At what point does having the authority to force everyone to free their pets itself constitute a hierarchy?


Orngog

Or the authority to resist hierarchies?


xbnm

At what point does having the authority to force everyone to give up their land constitute a hierarchy?


dumnezero

"their land" do you mean private property?


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ayden3a

I'm unsure what you mean by this.


DiveBarDave1

If you don’t know the difference between domesticated species and their wilder cousins, then you shouldn’t be having this argument. I say this as a vegan, who mostly subscribes to this line of thinking.


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alertkurt

Aren't we imprisoning children by that logic?


ayden3a

Yes


alertkurt

So children would be free to choose where they live and could be raised by a whole commune, instead of just two people, if they choose? Interesting. Really makes you think about how much your parents make you distrust other people as a child.


ayden3a

I would not put it this way, since I am opposed to this idea of communes, and replacing the nuclear family with the communal family (among other things). But I believe in complete autonomy for children. I believe all distinctions between children and adults, which is used as justification for their subjugation should be dismantled. This would include "child" choosing where and with whom they live (if anywhere or with anyone so including with no one).


ALoneTennoOperative

> I believe in complete autonomy for children. I believe **all distinctions between children and adults**, which is used as justification for their subjugation **should be dismantled**. You sound an *awful* lot like a *certain type* of libertarian...


UrklesAlter

I mean, giving adults authority over children is more often the aiding hand for people who want to sexually violate children. Teaching children that they have rights regardless of what the person who birthed them or takes care of them says and that they don't have to submit to something an adult says just because they're older sounds pretty in line with the anti hierarchy tenant of anarchism to me.


ayden3a

Alice in Monsterland is a text that covers this sort of thinking. Detailing how institutional power leads to children being abused as opposed to individuals "desire".


ALoneTennoOperative

You might want to pay closer attention to what that specific person is actually saying, at the very least. What *you* are saying is **not** "[remove] all distinctions between children and adults".


UrklesAlter

I did read what they said. I guess I just gave more emphasis to their qualifier for which distinctions that want to dismantle. That being those "which [are] used as justification for [children's] subjugation". I just took care to expand on what I believe is meant by that instead of assuming mal intent.


ALoneTennoOperative

Read their other responses, in which they equate Queer people with paedophilia. You are being overly generous.


ayden3a

Yes while I am anti-identity I would say i am just as "supportive" of pedophiles as I am other paraphiliacs such as queer people. A good text on this coming from the anarchist milue is Anarchy A journal of desire armed: issue 19 on child sexuality which depves into the topic, its relation to anarchism, places it historically, relates it to pycho analysis, relates it to queer struggle, a d gives examples of it in both personal terms and more systemic ones.


ALoneTennoOperative

You are fucking scum.


ayden3a

Why is this?


Yogurt_Ph1r3

Being queer isn't a paraphilia.


ayden3a

It used to be, as this ajoda issue points out there was a lot of overlap in both communities before queer people were able to assimilate more and not be designated as paraphiliacs.


Yogurt_Ph1r3

"It used to" Ok, and?


syndic_shevek

In practice, this basically means no adults are responsible for where children are or who they are with. I know you can figure out the problems with that.


alertkurt

I guess my phrasing could be changed to just a group of people instead of saying commune. Anyway, thanks for the clarification. Edit: I read some other replies, oof. The idea of giving children more autonomy is still interesting, though. But only as long as it prevents abuse and not incite it.


dumnezero

Wildlife trade is commodification and pillaging https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/lo4ql8/wildlife_trade_drives_declines_of_over_60_in/ And they use "I'm a breeder" to *launder* the animals.


Forever_GM1

HE WILL BE LOVED BY ALL


ItsOnlyJoey

Here’s a picture of him https://www.reddit.com/r/tortoise/comments/nxqx6r/my_favorite_picture_of_my_tortoise/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


gfox2638

*N O M*


zeca1486

WE SHALL MAKE HIM/HER KING…..and since your turtle cannot communicate with humans, it will be the perfect leader


ItsOnlyJoey

He won’t even be awake for most of the time He only wakes up to go eat


zeca1486

That’s what makes him the perfect king, he will leave all of us alone


ItsOnlyJoey

Except for when he wakes up, then we all have to feed him


zeca1486

Totally worth it for that cute little critter


Wonderful_Diamond_57

Yeah that definitely changes things.


XxbullshitxX

Nice


starboxhat

think of the groundhog in spring but, like, as a negotiating position


Turnontuneindropout7

It will just be a turtle. What kinda question is this?


Toralar

I'll give him some treats and he can hang out with us


PM_ME_SPICY_DECKS

At this point your turtle has most likely learned to rely on you for food and socialization and couldn't have a good life on its own, so it's probably most ethical for you to keep the turtle.


footloot

he would be ok i think


ju5510

He'll get to fight in the pits


deathschemist

you'll have more free time to spend with your little shell buddy, and he'll be able to have all the ugly vegetables he could ever desire!


panman112

he will break the chains of your unjust hierarchy and he shall be free


dhlrepacked

You will be his pet from then on


Anarcho-syndicalism-

You’ll get free food for the tortoise


littlelightdragon

he will be hailed as a god


CaJoKa04

This is one of the best threads ever. Ima save it and hope that i will never lose it :)


lukethebeard

No more tortoise, buddy


NativeAvian

Soup


RaeidEbrahim

You'd be able to keep it.


Wonderful_Diamond_57

Gotta be a troll


completionism

Definitely, but it's a good one and I'm here for it.


Wonderful_Diamond_57

I mean to me it's definitely got to be a Republican asking questions that are just completely irrelevant. I see a lot of posts on here that immediately make me think that


completionism

I more get the sense that it's someone well versed in leftist thought, here to point out how ridiculous some of the questions on this sub have gotten, and how totally-off-the-rails anarchist spaces have gotten since all the wokescolds got bored harping at each other for not being "good allies" and decided anarchy was the way to make everyone be like them instead. And I realize this makes me look like I'm also the OP but I'm not. I'm just in the same place but not as clever about it.


Wonderful_Diamond_57

I haven't been on this subreddit for very long but I can definitely see that.


Tordrew

Have you considered being happy?


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ItsOnlyJoey

That’s good to hear


kyoopy246

Animals as a possession 🤮


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BigBeefySquidward

That is true. I don't think that it's necessarily inhumane for humans to take care of animals, as long as they're not being abused.


kyoopy246

You could just say "in your care" or "in your responsibility" if that's what you mean, I think it would be more accurate


xbnm

Animals aren't property, and especially animals that haven't been domesticated and bred to live around humans should be left alone. No aquariums and no "exotic" pets. Domesticated animals are a different question but tortoises aren't domesticated.


Kalnb

Have you considered being normal


ogretronz

Since no property is allowed you’ll have to share the tortoise with everyone whenever they want to have it for a while


gfox2638

Stop trolling m8.


honeyougotwings

what the fuck is going on in here on this day


[deleted]

This is a lovely question. I want to meet your pet tortoise.


Jettzilla75

You mean OUR tortoise?


SimplyTesting

Just here to say that my friend kept their tortoise in a tiny tank and never played with them. I think this tortoise would rebel against the owner-pet hierarchy.