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What if the treaty of Versailles was less harsh for the central powers and Austria Hungary didn't collapse until the 1930s? (Year of the map is 1926)

What if the treaty of Versailles was less harsh for the central powers and Austria Hungary didn't collapse until the 1930s? (Year of the map is 1926)

Taosent

Why did Germany lose Silesia where a majority of Germans lived but Western Prussia and Posen remained German?


Damikosin

Maybe an exchange of some kind has happened? A better question would a more pro-Central Powers Versailles Treaty automatically mean more Soviet gains in the East?


Taosent

I wondered about this too. I mean Germany would still occupy these territories and Russia fell into civil war so why would they regain those territories?


Damikosin

Maybe not so-well thought out scenario is the only anwer? I mean I tend not to be harsh towards others here because I know half of people simply want to remade world the way they want and the lore is just an excuse so I guess I would assume there really isn't any viable solution why would Europe actually look like this.


Taosent

Yeah I see. Probably it’s the first attempt to create a map or simply trying to use those map making tools. I am working on my own lore of the 20th century and hope it would be well-thought for others :)


Damikosin

We will see. Hope it won't be too based though. :)


Taosent

Hope so. It’s a mix between my own thoughts and of course other impressions :)


Damikosin

Good luck then


Taosent

Thanks. I could sent you when I’m done :D


Damikosin

Would be nice :) This way I won't miss it when it's posted.


Bergioyn

> A better question would a more pro-Central Powers Versailles Treaty automatically mean more Soviet gains in the East? Weaker Poland could cause them to lose the Polish-Soviet war.


whatsreddit78

I would say it was probably based on the fact that imperial Germany would want as much control over Poland as possible and denying them a coastline would help with that


kaceymonk

That's no reason to give up the industrial center in Upper Silesia.


whatsreddit78

I'm just making a guess man, I saw someone say it could be some kind of exchange and that could be true, perhaps in this timeline Germany wants to try to run that whole naval thing back


Quiet_Beggar

maybe because silesia was more industrialised, and more attractive to the polish


Entire-Shelter-693

Why do the Ottomans lose land to Bulgaria


benemivikai4eezaet0

Yeah, why would Bulgaria not receive land it occupied but get land from the Ottomans with whom it was allied (not to mention Bulgarians in Eastern Thrace were purged in 1913 so the claim on that region kinda became void).


Entire-Shelter-693

And did Bulgaria even lost land here?


Psychological_Gain20

Bulgaria gained land after WW2 and it was part of the axis


Entire-Shelter-693

Well they for Land from Romania and didn't have to to Return it But here they gain land


J_GamerMapping

It might look cool on this map, but Poland not gaining access to the baltic sea is as impossible as Germany loosing all of Silesia. Even if Poland doesn't get the entire polish corridor they would gain lots of land in the area since much of it was well populated with ethnic Poles.


AlexSimonCullar

Well, I'm planning to make a WW2 on this timeline so all of these problems make start another great war 😋


kaceymonk

Ah, the S.M. Stirling School of Alternate History.


Sir_Tainley

Why didn't the Scheleswig referendum happen in 1920?


alpaca_andina

First of all Itally with Trieste and Fiume wouldnt hve become fascist specially considering that with no Fiume thingy fascism would at the very least not be called fascism Probably Yugoslavia/Bulgaria would become this timelines Italy


KnightofTorchlight

A bit of extra territory doesent change the factors of Italys post-war economic crisis and mass labor unrest/violence that lead to the rise of the Squadrismo (and the regeime's alliance with it). However, Serbia (given they don't have the Croats and Slovenes in this timeline to justify changing the name) having a strong "Mutilated peace" feeling and suffering similar security and economic woes almost certainly could go down a similar path. Especially with the decaying Habsburgs holding onto Croatia


alpaca_andina

Im mostly refering the fct that the fascist ideology was matured into a tangentiable ideology when a bunch of italian irredentists took over Fiume for some time untill the italian navy decided to retake the city and give it back to Yugoslavia


KnightofTorchlight

Yes to most of that but... when was the city given to Yugoslavia? The Free State of Fiume was a seperate legal entity, created by the 1920 Treaty of Rome, and the city was annexed into Italy in 1924 after Mussolini, an indisputable Fascist, had been Prime Minister for over a year. The Charter of the irredentists government certainly was the first to put Fascist principles into practice within a concrete legal framework. If I am missing something, please correct me However, the title of the map says its 1926, so both of those events (if they occured in this timeline) would have been passed, and the Squadrismo/Blackshirts and Mussolini would still be a thing. All the factors are still in place for something that strongly resembles Fascism to take over, even if minor event changes cause it to look slightly different


gregrektsnoobs

This time, would Poland give in to an inevitable German demand for slesnia?


AlexSimonCullar

I'm planning to make a WW2 on this timeline


LeDucTabouret

OK so a couple of questions 1 how did Germany keep being a monarchy despite Wilhelm abdicating 2 seeing as Germany lost Silesia and kept a bunch of coastline, are they more focus on their navy? (would be interesting for the ww2 scenario) 3 seeing as the french were extremely militaristic and trying to kill Germany as much as possible at the end of ww1, and were only quenched by the occupation of the Rhineland, are they still militaristic to the second world War, and not pacifist ? 4 Why did Poland lose its war against the USSR? They did lose some land in the west, weakening them, but a stronger Germany would no doubt help any country against the soviet menace 5 seeing the changes to turkey, the treaty of sevres probably didn't happen or very differently, did the war of Turkish independence and the rise of kemalism also happen? 6 during the last few years of Austria hungary, the idea of a danubian federation became increasingly popular (although I may be very wrong) and efforts were made to give more local autonomy to some ethnic minorities, would this change continue in the surviving austro Hungarian empire, eventually leading to the empire falling apart, but as a bunch of close allies with a common value of democratic-ish monarchy? The map doesn't seem very thought out to be honest but it can lead to a very interesting ww2


RampantAndroid

> The map doesn't seem very thought out to be honest but it can lead to a very interesting ww2 Would WWII have happened if Germany wasn’t so poorly off after WWI? It’s bigger than just land but was there a treaty that would have prevented Hitler from being able to capitalize on Germany’s poor situation? I know antisemitism didn’t start with Hitler of course.


Xarim57

Hitler was able to capitalize on the fact that the very proud and very militaristic german thought they were not defeated during world war 1, but betrayed by the politics. This alternate timeline doesn’t change that all, except it give Germany even more starting power.


LeDucTabouret

I don't think Hitler would be able to rise at all, the common folk don't really care about losing land, they care when they can't buy bread anymore, and because yous aid the treaty was less harsh I'm gonna assume the reperations as well. That being said Germany was still a very militarized state that would definitely try to get back at its enemies


OrcishWarmonger

how did ottomans lost adrianople to bulgaria again?


falseName12

This is a very well made and interesting map, but I still feel the need to point out that Versailles was not only completely just, but also not harsh at all.


AlexSimonCullar

It's my first alt history map, so it's not perfect, anyways I'm gonna make a WW2 on this timeline to solve some problems 😁


ZealousidealJicama11

Why would Austria give up Czechia? That's where the Austro-Hungarian industrial heartland lay.


flyingsquirrel15

awesome!


Skywarslord

I think Hungary would've lost more but it looks pretty good.


musicme_

No way they would let the Soviets take any land, none of the Russian officials (white and red) were invited to the Paris peace conference. And Germany losing entirety of Silesia is quite harsh, given that it's the second most industrial region after the Rhine


katerbilla

Why does Italy ALWAYS annex the absolutely German part of South Tyrol and not just the Italian Trentino? I will never get it.


kebabsellerful

I know it's an unpopular view, but for some like the French historian Jacques Bainville, the treaty of Versailles was precisely NOT HARSH ENOUGH. Consequently, he describes in the 1920s what is going to happen later before the world even knew about Hitler (the freaky part is that he was right). Additionally, he describes how the Americans prevented the French army from descending on to Berlin like they were ready to do. For him, that gave legitimacy to the "backstabbing" argument amongst the Germans, because they were told they lost the war without seeing a single enemy soldier on their soil, when in fact their army was smashed in the front by the Alliance. Again, unpopular opinion probably, but the way we could have AVOIDED the second world war was in the Treaty of Versailles to stipulate the partial dismantlement of the German Reich, which really was a "new" nation founded in the 1870s anyway. Just like we did to the French Empire when Napoleon lost. Which is what Bainville stipulates in his book "the consequence of Peace" in the 1920s.


falseName12

I don't think a harsher treaty could have prevented ww2 or the Nazis coming to power, that was far more a consequence of the incompetence of post war Germany's government (for example, when they hyperinflated the currency over having to pay a modest sum of reparations), the fact that Germany was a trade reliant nation in a time of heavy tariffs, and the total lack of enforcement on the part of Britain and France of ww1 treaties.


kebabsellerful

Yeah, I think what you state as a cause to the rise of Nazism is also true; but one does not prevent the other. Bainville's argument is that it would have been necessary to apply harsher measures to prevent the rise of a German power that would necessarily want to take revenge. Had the Entente dismantled the German Reich to the state of say the Rhein confederation of the XIX century, it would have been logistically impossible for her to rise to the state of threat to Europe. And that, even if Hitler came into power of one of the smaller dismantled German state. Of course, this is from a French perspective and in the interest of France. But after all, Austria Hungary got completely dismantled. We could have imagined the same state for Germany, divided in smaller countries like Bavaria, Prussia, etc.


Lava709

the good ending


Roman_dog506

What is the flag you used for Russia called? I’ve seen it before but I don’t know what It represents or is called.


charm3d47

it says RSFSR, meaning Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. The bolsheviks used it before the Soviet Union was founded in 1922. Not sure why it's still used here, since I see no reason the Soviet Union wouldn't still be a thing in this timeline


ArcherTheBoi

Hol up, why did Bulgaria gain land?


Leerzeichen95

Me waiting for an alt history where Bavaria’s independent


Fehervari

There are some odd decisions there. What are the details of the POD?


Free-Horse-8311

The Czech Republic is a major and essential part of Austria-Hungary as much as Austria and Hungary themselves ​ I don't think his separation is realistic (Bosnia can get rid of Galicia and parts of Transylvania)


LohtuPottu247

Slovaks did not like this one.


solidarity47

Weird that Turkey lost most of Thrace to Bulgaria.


Opposite-Natural2875

I mean WW2 never happens which leads to Germans not building any sort of respect for the United States but even before this, they only entered world war 1 to grow there overseas colony’s which they still have not completed. Just because it’s less harsh dosent mean France an Great Britain didn’t carve up the little African colony’s they had. Germany still holds great animosity towards the allied powers, Wilhelm most likely still Abdicates for fear that his people are going to rip his head off. Germany with no royal blood leader attempts to form a republic but things are moving to slow when there offered a helping hand from the soviets which they gladly accept. Fast forward all of Germany is Red not just the East, The United States has no foothold in Germany the closest the could possibly set up would be in Alsace Lorraine. In today’s standards were probably still in the Cold War. [Edit: I didn’t mention Austria Hungary cause we already know how that would end. They were a weak country who got even weaker eventually multiple revolutions come into play an the soviets side with the revolutionary’s an what was Austria Hungary is now a communist state.]


Interesting_Finish85

Considering how industrialized and rich Slesia was, it would be a significantly worse loss than Posen and Danzig.