Belgians: what is my purpose? This sub: you are free land for any of your neighbors to expand into

Quick someone make an alternate history where Belgium is the premier superpower

Oh God Indian Free State

Oh no, please no 😭

Too late, you have already lost your hands

I'll make that now

[https://www.reddit.com/r/AlternateHistory/comments/13nkvxt/what\_if\_belgium\_ruled\_over\_europe/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AlternateHistory/comments/13nkvxt/what_if_belgium_ruled_over_europe/) Done.

I thought that was Poland’s history… ~~jk~~

It’s free real estate.

it'd make a real *free state.*

We serve to show who´s winning

Belgians, you aren't alone, we as Czechs are often in same situation.

I love Czechs though. Bohemian heavy industry (vic 2) and high dev Kingdom of Bohemia (ck3) ftw. I also thought of an althist scenario where through a complex chain of events Premyslids are the Habsburgs. But it's not very creative, so...

Paradox has a secret love for Bohemia and I love it, also doing a tall play Czechia rn. They had no reason for all that farmland and a goldmine.

Alaskan here, same thing but with Canada, russia, or a rare japan

Why no native American Alaska sub that sounds so much more interesting then the 100000000000th haha Belgium speedbumb joke

Native Alaskan* or atleast stop giving us to the genocidal powers. Hell a Hawaiian Alaskan union could be cool

"union of the two most neglected states"

“Alternative reality where the pacific islands, Hawaii, and Alaska join into an anti-colonial union”

"Japan is denied entry into this union after concerns on it's intentions in Korea"

“The Pacific Union Of Independent Nations lays claim to French and English islands in the pacific.”

After insisting a native rebellion France and Brittan leave the minor islands of the pacific

I’m making this.

yes do it

There's actually a really interesting Alaskan alternate history called the Yiddish Policeman's Union. It's basically what if they try to make Israel but in Alaska.

It’s a book. I am Alaskan. I’ve heard of it! Never read it, but it seems incredibly fascinating.

It's actually a pretty popular alternate history book, at least to the point where they considered making a film adaptation of it with I think Sascha Baron Cohen in it, quite fascinating!

Or Liechtenstein in my timeline

Don't forget Liechtenstein!

Okay but nobody would know the difference if Alaska was owned by another group besides the natives because they’re all equally illegitimate including the US.

Then make it interesting! The natives traded with the Chinese, have there be a Sino-Alaskan union or something

An interesting thought. So basically the Chinese state emerges as a check on western expansion like they are now but 150 years earlier.

Yeah a qing Russian colonial spat

Belgian here too, we are destined to get annexed by either germany or france and sometimes the dutch

Maybe it’s time we stood up for ourselves and expand to all wind directions.

But which language will be spoken in your newly conquered territories? 😈

Arabic

Oh you mean Swedish? Weird choice.

Clearly everything north of Wallonia should speak Flemish, and anything south of Flanders should speak Walloon

Same pain for us Mexicans, we ended up either as a French or Confederacy colony, like we were able to defend ourselves

Or if either fails, they portray Mexico as completely swallowed up by the USA after 1848.

I'm baffled by that one every time!

I agree, I mean, as if the All Mexico annexation movement is popular enough in the USA IRL anyway, and the same but more forceful with those showing Baja California, Rio Grande and/or Yucatan as independent states a la Kosovo or something like that.

That one is even better, as if Mexico was plagued by the same regional identities as Spain or something like that, yes, there have been separatist movements on those states, but they were on the minority

That is to say, it seems that these attempts at separatism originated from above rather than from below, the complete opposite of Artsakh or Kosovo, which apparently did not have broad popular support.

Idk, there’s plenty of mega mexico maps that get posted somewhat often

I have seen few of those, but to me is as far fetched as the "colony" or "separatist Mexico" ones

Maximilian wasn’t really a French colony, it was meant to be a French client state and that period of french economic domination would have probably faded out by around 1900 Also. Americans have their exceptionalism issues. These are usually the same people that argue Lend Lease alone won WW2 and the Nazis would have won without American money. They genuinely think the USA could have annexed all of Mexico and the Mexicans would love US rule so much it’d stay apart of the USA Reality, this only really benefits the Maya in the Yucatan in their independence movement. Since the USA would never Be able to hold the actually populated parts of Mexico further south

I don’t know why you brought up Lend-Lease but Lend-Lease was absolutely crucial for the war effort just like other nations’ contributions were.

Yeah. It made a 10 year war a 5 year one. But it didn’t win WW2

And what exactly do you think did?

The Nazis having a terrible and unstable economy dependent on successful wars and conquest. That and Russian blood Stalins industrialisation programs would have worked without lend lease. They’d just be slower. Even if you assume Moscow falls. The Soviets just move their industrial base to the Volga instead Even if you want to want to ducking the Soviets entirely and go *They get conquered without lend lease*. Which is false but ok It is inexcusable to ignore the British MAUD committee and how ahead of the Manhattan project. Meaning nukes exist without the USA as well Lend Lease didn’t win WW2. It made the war shorter

> The Nazis having a terrible and unstable economy dependent on successful wars and conquest. I’ll get to this later but that wouldn’t have been much of a factor without any American involvement. > That and Russian blood Oh boy here we go again. > Stalins industrialisation programs would have worked without lend lease. They’d just be slower. Even if you assume Moscow falls. The Soviets just move their industrial base to the Volga instead You realize that moving your industrial base isn’t an easy task, right? You can’t just pack up and move a ton of factories while you’re being invaded easily. It wasn’t a simple process even when the USSR was moving factories to the Urals. > Even if you want to want to ducking the Soviets entirely and go They get conquered without lend lease. Which is false but ok Why don’t we crunch some numbers and look at some sources? The U.S. sent over $11.8 billion in Lend-Lease to the USSR. That’s about $180 billion in today’s money. Among this aid was about $11 billion in materials, over 400000 jeeps and trucks, 12000 armored vehicles (including 7000 tanks), 11400 aircraft, ~15 million pairs of army boots, and 1.75 million tons of food. Let’s look at some Soviet/Russian sources on the matter. "I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war. The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war." \- Josef Stalin, former Premier of the Soviet Union "If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. One-on-one against Hitler's Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me." \- Nikita Kruschev, former Red Army lieutenant-general and Premier of the Soviet Union "In a hypothetical battle one-on-one between the U.S.S.R and Germany, without the help of Lend-Lease and without the diversion of significant forces of the Luftwaffe and the German Navy and the diversion of more than one-quarter of its land forces in the fight against Britain and the United States, Stalin could hardly have beaten Hitler.” - Boris Sokolov, Russian historian. > It is inexcusable to ignore the British MAUD committee and how ahead of the Manhattan project. Meaning nukes exist without the USA as well I’m well aware of the MAUD committee’s contributions to nuclear weapons. But the MAUD committee gave their findings to the Manhattan Project and the US, who actually had the materials and capital to spend on developing nuclear weapons that Britain did not because of how badly their economy had been hit by the war, was able to develop them by 1945. > Lend Lease didn’t win WW2. It made the war shorter “Lend-Lease didn’t win the war, it was just so effective that it cut the time it took to win the war in half.” Also, I don’t know if you’re Euro-brained or something but there were more theaters than just Europe. American aid also extended to China, who was fighting Japan, another major member of the Axis who’d need to be defeated for the war to finally end.

You never actually got to this Yeah. Because it’s true. Ya Americacentric exceptionalism believing yank You do realise this the Soviet Union in a war economy. The benefit of state run enterprises *is the fact you can just build cities and the desert and declare a success*. The Soviets could an would move their industrialisation programs to the Volga. Something made even easier by the fact *they didn’t have a massive industrial base pre-WW2* Ah yes the famous quotes. You know Stalin supported a man who claimed natural selection was false and grains could learn each others traits if grown together under socialist principles? He effectively decided Basic Biology was a capitalist plot. You still think he is a great intellectual worth believing at face value? A man who said science was fake? As for the military advisors. Making a 10 year war a 5 year war is the same as winning it from their POV. But, the Nazis weren’t ever winning WW2 Finally, Britain still wins the Battle of Britain without the United States. The North African Campaign still exists. Without the United States. Yugoslavia is still in open rebellion. Without the United States The United States were just fresh bodies and supplies to the British. Every major decision but D-day was made by the British command. The US is therefore irrelevant to whether the British are a pain in the Nazis arsenal Hah-Hah. No. The USA is honestly not getting a working nuclear program for decades without the MAUD committees results. There main contribution to the Manhattan project was plutonium. Otherwise, with a fraction of the money and manpower. The MAUD committee was literally years ahead of the Manhattan project. Britain also controlled most of the worlds known Uranium reserves. So, the USA is irrelevant here as well Also, hard concept for an American to understands but Japan honestly doesn’t matter. What happens? Oh. The Netherlands, France and Britain lose colonial possessions to a different empire. Ok. Does that change anything of consequence? Is that any different from how Southeast Asia was before WW2? The answer is no. The only difference is china is gone now as well, but that still doesn’t really matter

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Why is this particular "Good" downvoted?

Computer. Delete the Belgians.

I once made a map for a mega-Belgium. I'll post it if anyone is interested. Lore: After WW2, America gets their way And treats France as an enabler of the Nazi regime. Britain, not wanting to take the lead on mainland European disputes, vote to strip France of its Northeast section and Germany of the Rhine to create a perpetually neutral and economically powerful state out of the Benelux region.

I feel your pain brother. Watching r/imaginarymaps as a Turk gives me the same headache

Watching any map making sub as a Russian gives headaches. It’s literally either conquered by Ukraine, or destroyed by neighbors

The best part is when they carve unstable, Russian majority states out of the country, like a completely arbitrary "Far Eastern Republic" which is for all intents and purposes as Russian as Moscow.

Also my reaction seeing alternative future maps and seeing Spain chopped up into pieces

😭

Well, it really is a waiting game for Catalan nationalism on a large and small scales

You are now part of Armenia. Congrats

In all fairness, at least you have the modern controversies and colonial empire to justify why splitting up Turkey is interesting to so many people

Same thing with lebanon, every time somebody realizes they forgot to chabge the middle east they just make lebanon a part of Syria.

Can we all agree that 90% of the perpetrators are lazy what if Germany won ww2?

I want to see a map where Belgium takes the Netherlands, Luxembourg and why not a part of France and Germany? Country’s name? Big Belgium

Bigium, aka Big Jim

As a belgian , please destroy this napoleonic error

Brother why do you hate yourself so much

Tell me a reason to why belgium must exist

To prevent DR of Congo from having too many hands

True.

He just said he's belgian, did you even read his comment ?

It’s a shame that countries such as Belgium aren’t explored. Same with Poland, Bohemia and the Baltic states. Each has amazing cultures and history which is worth exploring. They are only known for being occupied by foreign powers but compared to most of history is only a fraction.

As Korean, we are also either part of China or Japan on every alternative history map lol

Came here to say the same thing :(

Thats because you exist only to contain Dutch aggression

As a Korean same. 99.999% of the time we’re Japan’s bitch.

Because belgium is a post bepoloenic construct with bearly any weight to throw around. There isnt much story potential but going down or playing second violin. Best senarious that can be made are strange colonial once. Belgiums best homefront is the dutch and there ussualy not winning thet fight either.

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Neither do the Scandinavian countries and Switzerland half the time but y'all keep them around

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I don't like France but I don't delete the country every time I think of a alt history scenario

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And replace it by what ?

Gaul obviously

Meanwhile as a Canadian I see the stats going to shit in this alt history and Canada just hanging out unchanged or for some odd reason gaining parts of the states….

Yeah! ALASKANS DONT WANNA BE CANADIAN! WE HAVE AN INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT FOR A REASON!

What if Belgium won world war one? Brought to you by: IsorrowProductions!

Bro you are literally 2 countries in 1 wtf do you expect

Don't worry, in my alternate history, Belgium still exists. It doesn't lose land, it doesn't gain land, it just exists as it does in our timeline. It just no longer borders Germany.

Rhineland?

Nope, guess again.

French annexed west rhine

Not rhineland, think further north. It has the same name as its capital city.

Glorious Luxembourg got its German land back

Not North enough

Hamburg or Hannover?

Very, very close. Slightly smaller city.

Bielefeld?

Westfalia is back but that's not a city so independent Aachen maybe

I’m sure I’ve seen Belgium incorporated into the Netherlands a couple of times.

Yup, I understand. We Slovenians are always part of either greater Italy or greater Austria

Australian, either japans bitch or non existent, no in between

As a Malaysian, I feel the same thing, we just get taken up by Indonesia everytime

Ah, the Benelux. Europe's speed bump.

I mean, what do you expect to happen after some resistance? Belgian empire of central Europe?

The Congo approves

The only time you had an empire it was Congo, forgive us if we no longer trust you.

People from Kongo: Good

Belgium deserves nothing else

Shouldn't have built your country in marshy lowlands... Swamp Germans

Idea: Belgium has 3 cultures in it, therefore it can annex all 3 of them

Me being Macedonian can relate. We're a l w a y s part of Bulgaria.

Good 🚬

Good 🚬

Good 🚬

Belgium: What is my purpose? France and Britain: You buy us an extra 3 months.

To be fair, your country only really existed to serve British interests. Belgium had neutrality imposed on it by Britain to prevent with France and Germany. Or, at least, make it harder. Hence the speedbump. I'm aware of the religious divide between the protestants and catholics, but, well, even your own country doesn't want to exist. Didn't you guys lack a government for like two whole years? Hopefully you guys end up with a concrete national identity despite national divisions at some point like Switzerland did.

Belgian looking at their history.

Would you prefer we bring up the Congo?

It's funny how every other European nation gets at least one post every month where it has expanded or become another ideology but Belgium we just get split up and eaten or turned into Germany's post world war win bitch all wile other multi-ethnic states like Switzerland just sit there

To be fair half of my partners family dreams of vlaanderen that at least is not the same country that valonia is and well looking at the political landscape of vlaanderen it seems to be popular opinion. However turning vlaanderen into a port of Netherlands seems to be a big no no so Germany even less likely. The idea that Germany can just bloob up its neighbor and become some kind of Gross Germany seems to be popular and many alternative history nerds seems to have some kind of bias towards Germany. Where the political and economical landscape of the 20th century is ignored in order to fulfil Germany imperial dreams.

I'm sorry I feel partially to blame for you troubles...

Il n'y a pas des Belgiques

Tbh belgium really should just stop exist /s

What is this “Belgium” you speak of, sound even more ridiculous than whatever “Australia” is supposed to be

*cough * fake nation * cough *

Cough that joke was never funny cough

I am 10 miles from the border and that shit is hillarious

After what y’all did to Congo, you should be happy with what you got

Okay, I will turn you into Congo’s bitch.

I’ll make an expanded Belgium for you :)

You know what? I'll make a big Belgium just for you! :)

Given how both world wars went, I have to ask if you’ve tried NOT bending over for Germany?

That’s because you’re literally a feudal holdover

Imagine how Congo feels.

Who cares about belgium we should partiion it between the Germans the Dutch and the French

I mean Belgium was made as a buffer states. Most interesting thing to do with Belgium always comes down to making the DRC a superpower by making Leopold not a inhuman monster

Whatchu get for raping the congo

So we get bullied for what our colonial elite did but the Dutch get of Scot free?

*The Belgian Congo has entered the chat*. No, no—not like that! Beer—let's stick with beer. Good beer.

I could be wrong, but isn't it because the outcome in our timeline of the London Conference of 1830 was not a foregone conclusion, i.e. Belgium could easily have *not* been recognised as an independent country? Edit: The downvote tells me someone thinks I'm wrong. Care to point out my specific error?

Shouldn’t’ve kicked the Congo

Deserved

Not germany, French's bitch xD

I believe you should be a fucking shallow lake after the dutch reroute their ocean to drown you, you orange frenchman and red dutchman. (I harbor no ill feelings towards the Belgium "People") (This is mearly alternative history :D)

Or you become apart of big Netherlands

welkom thuis :) 🇳🇱

The revolution of small countries is about to begin

developing a belgepunk world is hard when not belgian Actually, that’s something I’d like to see: a uniquely Belgian take on the future.

Frenchman here, cry about it waffle man /s

Bolivian here. Our only purpose is to either remain the same or to be annexed by Peru, sometimes by Argentina. Most of this sub’s posts are focused on Europe or Asia so we are not even mentioned most of the time.

Similarly, I have yet to see a good take on Mormons. Dystopian theocracy again, eh lads?

Can relate as an Irish Source: This sub

awww buddy we don’t think you’re germany’s bitch… that’s france, close tho, y’all are like germany’s unwanted stepchild

Belgian? Oh you mean speedbump!

Me as an Australian seeing all the posts making us green and having a large population: 😁

Belgium isn’t real, wake up

because history isn't fair lmao, a tiny ass country that's never had a population larger than 12 million people surrounded by continental powers isn't going to be a world power, and if it has something those powers want its not going to remain independent

Meanwhile Mexicans get to watch as their nation practically falls into being the US's bitch either losing more territory or the entire nation

Looking at this sub as a Canadian: Either the USA's bitch, Britain's bitch, France's bitch, chopped up to be a bit of everyone's bitch, or a republic. The last one doesn't immediately sound bad but is a horror story if you know anything about the Canadian constitution and Crown-First Nations treaties.

Now you know how I feel as a Canadian! It's either we get annexed by the U.S.A., or be UK 2.0.

Don't blame us for your being Belgian.

Bro, i would make you stay where you are, but i didn't make da map yet.

Well would you like to become the Belgian Free State

It's a miracle your country still exists

Rewrite Belgiums history with black Jack and hookers then

Hey now sometimes I just like to make a burgundy

As a Finnish person, I feel your pain. The only times when Finland isn't just exactly the same or absorbed by Russia is when the Nazis win.

As an Austrian, I feel you

Als een mede Belg(in Vlaanderen) weet ik hoe het voelt.

Well here they balkanize us without any regards to the actual ethnic composition of the country (Spain)

As a Lithuanian I feel you, Lithuania seems to get split between Russia, Poland and Germany quite abit

I am Korean Tell me about it

Meanwhile Poland is a conundrum: either a Intermarum superpower or non-existent at all.

Sorry, in my headcanon your destiny is to be split between France and the Netherlands, Belgians. You're not even real Belgae...posers...

Sorry about that, northern French/southern Dutch/western German/cross-channel British/north-western Luxembourgish person

The only alternative history I could think for Belgium is what if Lotharingia survived and had all of modern day Belgium.

What have you done

You shouldn't exist

Sometimes you become the Dutch's bitch

Not me, I imagine a world where Belgium never let go of the Kongo and sparked WWIII cuz of it.

Not true! Sometimes you get to be Flanders-Wallonia!

Also known as Germany's Bitch

Same with Belarus, either getting annexed by Russia, Poland or Lithuania or even worse becomeing a ge\*man colony under the kaiserreich or baltic Reichskommisarat

Ok I have to write one, Belgium conquers the Netherlands and Luxenbourg to become the Kingdom of Greater Belgium