T O P

Like y'all either delete us or turn us into Germany's bitch nothing else

Belgians: what is my purpose?

This sub: you are free land for any of your neighbors to expand into

PanicEffective6871

Belgians: what is my purpose? This sub: you are free land for any of your neighbors to expand into


HelpingHand7338

Quick someone make an alternate history where Belgium is the premier superpower


DownrangeCash2

Oh God Indian Free State


SilanggubanRedditor

Oh no, please no 😭


DownrangeCash2

Too late, you have already lost your hands


BurgundianCockVore

I'll make that now


Joseph_Stalin111

[https://www.reddit.com/r/AlternateHistory/comments/13nkvxt/what\_if\_belgium\_ruled\_over\_europe/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AlternateHistory/comments/13nkvxt/what_if_belgium_ruled_over_europe/) Done.


Prepare-thine-anus

I thought that was Poland’s history… ~~jk~~


YanniRotten

It’s free real estate.


iimaginaryedge

it'd make a real *free state.*


Da_GentleShark

We serve to show who´s winning


datura_euclid

Belgians, you aren't alone, we as Czechs are often in same situation.


FeeComprehensive75

I love Czechs though. Bohemian heavy industry (vic 2) and high dev Kingdom of Bohemia (ck3) ftw. I also thought of an althist scenario where through a complex chain of events Premyslids are the Habsburgs. But it's not very creative, so...


WidePark9725

Paradox has a secret love for Bohemia and I love it, also doing a tall play Czechia rn. They had no reason for all that farmland and a goldmine.


Alaskan_Tsar

Alaskan here, same thing but with Canada, russia, or a rare japan


theflemmischelion

Why no native American Alaska sub that sounds so much more interesting then the 100000000000th haha Belgium speedbumb joke


Alaskan_Tsar

Native Alaskan* or atleast stop giving us to the genocidal powers. Hell a Hawaiian Alaskan union could be cool


theflemmischelion

"union of the two most neglected states"


Alaskan_Tsar

“Alternative reality where the pacific islands, Hawaii, and Alaska join into an anti-colonial union”


theflemmischelion

"Japan is denied entry into this union after concerns on it's intentions in Korea"


Alaskan_Tsar

“The Pacific Union Of Independent Nations lays claim to French and English islands in the pacific.”


theflemmischelion

After insisting a native rebellion France and Brittan leave the minor islands of the pacific


JT_Boiiis

I’m making this.


ityuu

yes do it


JetAbyss

There's actually a really interesting Alaskan alternate history called the Yiddish Policeman's Union. It's basically what if they try to make Israel but in Alaska.


PolarianLancer

It’s a book. I am Alaskan. I’ve heard of it! Never read it, but it seems incredibly fascinating.


JetAbyss

It's actually a pretty popular alternate history book, at least to the point where they considered making a film adaptation of it with I think Sascha Baron Cohen in it, quite fascinating!


Hazmatix_art

Or Liechtenstein in my timeline


Fox6576

Don't forget Liechtenstein!


yikes_6143

Okay but nobody would know the difference if Alaska was owned by another group besides the natives because they’re all equally illegitimate including the US.


Alaskan_Tsar

Then make it interesting! The natives traded with the Chinese, have there be a Sino-Alaskan union or something


yikes_6143

An interesting thought. So basically the Chinese state emerges as a check on western expansion like they are now but 150 years earlier.


Alaskan_Tsar

Yeah a qing Russian colonial spat


SW-Meme-Dealer

Belgian here too, we are destined to get annexed by either germany or france and sometimes the dutch


Muze69

Maybe it’s time we stood up for ourselves and expand to all wind directions.


Intellectual_Wafer

But which language will be spoken in your newly conquered territories? 😈


Muze69

Arabic


Intellectual_Wafer

Oh you mean Swedish? Weird choice.


harfordplanning

Clearly everything north of Wallonia should speak Flemish, and anything south of Flanders should speak Walloon


GGAguilar85

Same pain for us Mexicans, we ended up either as a French or Confederacy colony, like we were able to defend ourselves


Hispanoamericano2000

Or if either fails, they portray Mexico as completely swallowed up by the USA after 1848.


GGAguilar85

I'm baffled by that one every time!


Hispanoamericano2000

I agree, I mean, as if the All Mexico annexation movement is popular enough in the USA IRL anyway, and the same but more forceful with those showing Baja California, Rio Grande and/or Yucatan as independent states a la Kosovo or something like that.


GGAguilar85

That one is even better, as if Mexico was plagued by the same regional identities as Spain or something like that, yes, there have been separatist movements on those states, but they were on the minority


Hispanoamericano2000

That is to say, it seems that these attempts at separatism originated from above rather than from below, the complete opposite of Artsakh or Kosovo, which apparently did not have broad popular support.


WorksV3

Idk, there’s plenty of mega mexico maps that get posted somewhat often


GGAguilar85

I have seen few of those, but to me is as far fetched as the "colony" or "separatist Mexico" ones


Red_Riviera

Maximilian wasn’t really a French colony, it was meant to be a French client state and that period of french economic domination would have probably faded out by around 1900 Also. Americans have their exceptionalism issues. These are usually the same people that argue Lend Lease alone won WW2 and the Nazis would have won without American money. They genuinely think the USA could have annexed all of Mexico and the Mexicans would love US rule so much it’d stay apart of the USA Reality, this only really benefits the Maya in the Yucatan in their independence movement. Since the USA would never Be able to hold the actually populated parts of Mexico further south


TBT_1776

I don’t know why you brought up Lend-Lease but Lend-Lease was absolutely crucial for the war effort just like other nations’ contributions were.


Red_Riviera

Yeah. It made a 10 year war a 5 year one. But it didn’t win WW2


TBT_1776

And what exactly do you think did?


Red_Riviera

The Nazis having a terrible and unstable economy dependent on successful wars and conquest. That and Russian blood Stalins industrialisation programs would have worked without lend lease. They’d just be slower. Even if you assume Moscow falls. The Soviets just move their industrial base to the Volga instead Even if you want to want to ducking the Soviets entirely and go *They get conquered without lend lease*. Which is false but ok It is inexcusable to ignore the British MAUD committee and how ahead of the Manhattan project. Meaning nukes exist without the USA as well Lend Lease didn’t win WW2. It made the war shorter


TBT_1776

> The Nazis having a terrible and unstable economy dependent on successful wars and conquest. I’ll get to this later but that wouldn’t have been much of a factor without any American involvement. > That and Russian blood Oh boy here we go again. > Stalins industrialisation programs would have worked without lend lease. They’d just be slower. Even if you assume Moscow falls. The Soviets just move their industrial base to the Volga instead You realize that moving your industrial base isn’t an easy task, right? You can’t just pack up and move a ton of factories while you’re being invaded easily. It wasn’t a simple process even when the USSR was moving factories to the Urals. > Even if you want to want to ducking the Soviets entirely and go They get conquered without lend lease. Which is false but ok Why don’t we crunch some numbers and look at some sources? The U.S. sent over $11.8 billion in Lend-Lease to the USSR. That’s about $180 billion in today’s money. Among this aid was about $11 billion in materials, over 400000 jeeps and trucks, 12000 armored vehicles (including 7000 tanks), 11400 aircraft, ~15 million pairs of army boots, and 1.75 million tons of food. Let’s look at some Soviet/Russian sources on the matter. "I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war. The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war." \- Josef Stalin, former Premier of the Soviet Union "If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. One-on-one against Hitler's Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me." \- Nikita Kruschev, former Red Army lieutenant-general and Premier of the Soviet Union "In a hypothetical battle one-on-one between the U.S.S.R and Germany, without the help of Lend-Lease and without the diversion of significant forces of the Luftwaffe and the German Navy and the diversion of more than one-quarter of its land forces in the fight against Britain and the United States, Stalin could hardly have beaten Hitler.” - Boris Sokolov, Russian historian. > It is inexcusable to ignore the British MAUD committee and how ahead of the Manhattan project. Meaning nukes exist without the USA as well I’m well aware of the MAUD committee’s contributions to nuclear weapons. But the MAUD committee gave their findings to the Manhattan Project and the US, who actually had the materials and capital to spend on developing nuclear weapons that Britain did not because of how badly their economy had been hit by the war, was able to develop them by 1945. > Lend Lease didn’t win WW2. It made the war shorter “Lend-Lease didn’t win the war, it was just so effective that it cut the time it took to win the war in half.” Also, I don’t know if you’re Euro-brained or something but there were more theaters than just Europe. American aid also extended to China, who was fighting Japan, another major member of the Axis who’d need to be defeated for the war to finally end.


Red_Riviera

You never actually got to this Yeah. Because it’s true. Ya Americacentric exceptionalism believing yank You do realise this the Soviet Union in a war economy. The benefit of state run enterprises *is the fact you can just build cities and the desert and declare a success*. The Soviets could an would move their industrialisation programs to the Volga. Something made even easier by the fact *they didn’t have a massive industrial base pre-WW2* Ah yes the famous quotes. You know Stalin supported a man who claimed natural selection was false and grains could learn each others traits if grown together under socialist principles? He effectively decided Basic Biology was a capitalist plot. You still think he is a great intellectual worth believing at face value? A man who said science was fake? As for the military advisors. Making a 10 year war a 5 year war is the same as winning it from their POV. But, the Nazis weren’t ever winning WW2 Finally, Britain still wins the Battle of Britain without the United States. The North African Campaign still exists. Without the United States. Yugoslavia is still in open rebellion. Without the United States The United States were just fresh bodies and supplies to the British. Every major decision but D-day was made by the British command. The US is therefore irrelevant to whether the British are a pain in the Nazis arsenal Hah-Hah. No. The USA is honestly not getting a working nuclear program for decades without the MAUD committees results. There main contribution to the Manhattan project was plutonium. Otherwise, with a fraction of the money and manpower. The MAUD committee was literally years ahead of the Manhattan project. Britain also controlled most of the worlds known Uranium reserves. So, the USA is irrelevant here as well Also, hard concept for an American to understands but Japan honestly doesn’t matter. What happens? Oh. The Netherlands, France and Britain lose colonial possessions to a different empire. Ok. Does that change anything of consequence? Is that any different from how Southeast Asia was before WW2? The answer is no. The only difference is china is gone now as well, but that still doesn’t really matter


WD-40-RewardsProgram

Good


NoSample176

Good


Taqao

Good


RaidoSkull78

Good


Rough_Transition1424

Good


Wolfsgeist01

Good


PolarianLancer

Good


comad8

Good


Shakanaka

Why is this particular "Good" downvoted?


AleksandrNevsky

Computer. Delete the Belgians.


mattpiv

I once made a map for a mega-Belgium. I'll post it if anyone is interested. Lore: After WW2, America gets their way And treats France as an enabler of the Nazi regime. Britain, not wanting to take the lead on mainland European disputes, vote to strip France of its Northeast section and Germany of the Rhine to create a perpetually neutral and economically powerful state out of the Benelux region.


RemarkableCheek4596

I feel your pain brother. Watching r/imaginarymaps as a Turk gives me the same headache


CubarisMurinaPapaya

Watching any map making sub as a Russian gives headaches. It’s literally either conquered by Ukraine, or destroyed by neighbors


DownrangeCash2

The best part is when they carve unstable, Russian majority states out of the country, like a completely arbitrary "Far Eastern Republic" which is for all intents and purposes as Russian as Moscow.


demesel

Also my reaction seeing alternative future maps and seeing Spain chopped up into pieces


UltraTata

😭


Red_Riviera

Well, it really is a waiting game for Catalan nationalism on a large and small scales


Hazmatix_art

You are now part of Armenia. Congrats


Red_Riviera

In all fairness, at least you have the modern controversies and colonial empire to justify why splitting up Turkey is interesting to so many people


Ok-Carpenter7892

Same thing with lebanon, every time somebody realizes they forgot to chabge the middle east they just make lebanon a part of Syria.


Librtserpent

Can we all agree that 90% of the perpetrators are lazy what if Germany won ww2?


Birdatemycars

I want to see a map where Belgium takes the Netherlands, Luxembourg and why not a part of France and Germany? Country’s name? Big Belgium


jmcross02

Bigium, aka Big Jim


Genhis_Can

As a belgian , please destroy this napoleonic error


theflemmischelion

Brother why do you hate yourself so much


Genhis_Can

Tell me a reason to why belgium must exist


UltraTata

To prevent DR of Congo from having too many hands


Genhis_Can

True.


Taqao

He just said he's belgian, did you even read his comment ?


Nature_Walking

It’s a shame that countries such as Belgium aren’t explored. Same with Poland, Bohemia and the Baltic states. Each has amazing cultures and history which is worth exploring. They are only known for being occupied by foreign powers but compared to most of history is only a fraction.


Golmar_gaming227

As Korean, we are also either part of China or Japan on every alternative history map lol


Leldy22

Came here to say the same thing :(


Blindmailman

Thats because you exist only to contain Dutch aggression


On_LiveSK

As a Korean same. 99.999% of the time we’re Japan’s bitch.


electric-angel

Because belgium is a post bepoloenic construct with bearly any weight to throw around. There isnt much story potential but going down or playing second violin. Best senarious that can be made are strange colonial once. Belgiums best homefront is the dutch and there ussualy not winning thet fight either.


[deleted]

[удалено]


theflemmischelion

Neither do the Scandinavian countries and Switzerland half the time but y'all keep them around


[deleted]

[удалено]


theflemmischelion

I don't like France but I don't delete the country every time I think of a alt history scenario


[deleted]

[удалено]


Taqao

And replace it by what ?


Lucia-littleSnowgirl

Gaul obviously


Novus20

Meanwhile as a Canadian I see the stats going to shit in this alt history and Canada just hanging out unchanged or for some odd reason gaining parts of the states….


Alaskan_Tsar

Yeah! ALASKANS DONT WANNA BE CANADIAN! WE HAVE AN INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT FOR A REASON!


yeetusdacanible

What if Belgium won world war one? Brought to you by: IsorrowProductions!


Unlikely_opponent

Bro you are literally 2 countries in 1 wtf do you expect


Toxopid

Don't worry, in my alternate history, Belgium still exists. It doesn't lose land, it doesn't gain land, it just exists as it does in our timeline. It just no longer borders Germany.


theflemmischelion

Rhineland?


Toxopid

Nope, guess again.


theflemmischelion

French annexed west rhine


Toxopid

Not rhineland, think further north. It has the same name as its capital city.


theflemmischelion

Glorious Luxembourg got its German land back


Toxopid

Not North enough


demesel

Hamburg or Hannover?


Toxopid

Very, very close. Slightly smaller city.


demesel

Bielefeld?


theflemmischelion

Westfalia is back but that's not a city so independent Aachen maybe


Trashk4n

I’m sure I’ve seen Belgium incorporated into the Netherlands a couple of times.


MaterialConsistent96

Yup, I understand. We Slovenians are always part of either greater Italy or greater Austria


PocketCaribou

Australian, either japans bitch or non existent, no in between


tankengine75

As a Malaysian, I feel the same thing, we just get taken up by Indonesia everytime


FallenCringelord

Ah, the Benelux. Europe's speed bump.


AlmightyDarkseid

I mean, what do you expect to happen after some resistance? Belgian empire of central Europe?


TheRealMolloy

The Congo approves


Interesting_Finish85

The only time you had an empire it was Congo, forgive us if we no longer trust you.


random_femdom

People from Kongo: Good


Affectionate-Arm-738

Belgium deserves nothing else


GrzebusMan

Shouldn't have built your country in marshy lowlands... Swamp Germans


FlamingTrashcans

Idea: Belgium has 3 cultures in it, therefore it can annex all 3 of them


stojcekiko

Me being Macedonian can relate. We're a l w a y s part of Bulgaria.


The___Pollo

Good 🚬


Taqao

Good 🚬


Esquili

Good 🚬


Raynes98

Belgium: What is my purpose? France and Britain: You buy us an extra 3 months.


DanDaPanMan

To be fair, your country only really existed to serve British interests. Belgium had neutrality imposed on it by Britain to prevent with France and Germany. Or, at least, make it harder. Hence the speedbump. I'm aware of the religious divide between the protestants and catholics, but, well, even your own country doesn't want to exist. Didn't you guys lack a government for like two whole years? Hopefully you guys end up with a concrete national identity despite national divisions at some point like Switzerland did.


UltraTata

Belgian looking at their history.


Far_Celebration3978

Would you prefer we bring up the Congo?


theflemmischelion

It's funny how every other European nation gets at least one post every month where it has expanded or become another ideology but Belgium we just get split up and eaten or turned into Germany's post world war win bitch all wile other multi-ethnic states like Switzerland just sit there


morrikai

To be fair half of my partners family dreams of vlaanderen that at least is not the same country that valonia is and well looking at the political landscape of vlaanderen it seems to be popular opinion. However turning vlaanderen into a port of Netherlands seems to be a big no no so Germany even less likely. The idea that Germany can just bloob up its neighbor and become some kind of Gross Germany seems to be popular and many alternative history nerds seems to have some kind of bias towards Germany. Where the political and economical landscape of the 20th century is ignored in order to fulfil Germany imperial dreams.


Necessary-Rip-6612

I'm sorry I feel partially to blame for you troubles...


MarioTheMojoMan

Il n'y a pas des Belgiques


KaiserDioBrando

Tbh belgium really should just stop exist /s


ProbablyNotTheCocoa

What is this “Belgium” you speak of, sound even more ridiculous than whatever “Australia” is supposed to be


-bASSlIFE03-

*cough * fake nation * cough *


theflemmischelion

Cough that joke was never funny cough


electric-angel

I am 10 miles from the border and that shit is hillarious


SadCrouton

After what y’all did to Congo, you should be happy with what you got


Cybermat4704

Okay, I will turn you into Congo’s bitch.


FyreLordPlayz

I’ll make an expanded Belgium for you :)


SpateF

You know what? I'll make a big Belgium just for you! :)


PuzzleheadedEssay198

Given how both world wars went, I have to ask if you’ve tried NOT bending over for Germany?


[deleted]

That’s because you’re literally a feudal holdover


CharlesOberonn

Imagine how Congo feels.


Last_Worry_9561

Who cares about belgium we should partiion it between the Germans the Dutch and the French


Red_Riviera

I mean Belgium was made as a buffer states. Most interesting thing to do with Belgium always comes down to making the DRC a superpower by making Leopold not a inhuman monster


UngusBungus_

Whatchu get for raping the congo


theflemmischelion

So we get bullied for what our colonial elite did but the Dutch get of Scot free?


JL_Kuykendall

*The Belgian Congo has entered the chat*. No, no—not like that! Beer—let's stick with beer. Good beer.


DPVaughan

I could be wrong, but isn't it because the outcome in our timeline of the London Conference of 1830 was not a foregone conclusion, i.e. Belgium could easily have *not* been recognised as an independent country? Edit: The downvote tells me someone thinks I'm wrong. Care to point out my specific error?


Complete-Intention-5

Shouldn’t’ve kicked the Congo


Tutella-Nutella

Deserved


steinman90

Not germany, French's bitch xD


Stirtard

I believe you should be a fucking shallow lake after the dutch reroute their ocean to drown you, you orange frenchman and red dutchman. (I harbor no ill feelings towards the Belgium "People") (This is mearly alternative history :D)


Lingist091

Or you become apart of big Netherlands


Omnicide103

welkom thuis :) 🇳🇱


flying_turttle

The revolution of small countries is about to begin


Zytharros

developing a belgepunk world is hard when not belgian Actually, that’s something I’d like to see: a uniquely Belgian take on the future.


Frenchy_InTheTrenchy

Frenchman here, cry about it waffle man /s


General_MorbingTime

Bolivian here. Our only purpose is to either remain the same or to be annexed by Peru, sometimes by Argentina. Most of this sub’s posts are focused on Europe or Asia so we are not even mentioned most of the time.


GilgameshWulfenbach

Similarly, I have yet to see a good take on Mormons. Dystopian theocracy again, eh lads?


HeccMeOk

Can relate as an Irish Source: This sub


xeroasteroid

awww buddy we don’t think you’re germany’s bitch… that’s france, close tho, y’all are like germany’s unwanted stepchild


UltimateMastermind

Belgian? Oh you mean speedbump!


ferfersoy

Me as an Australian seeing all the posts making us green and having a large population: 😁


Alexius_Psellos

Belgium isn’t real, wake up


Moonatik_

because history isn't fair lmao, a tiny ass country that's never had a population larger than 12 million people surrounded by continental powers isn't going to be a world power, and if it has something those powers want its not going to remain independent


The-Travis-Broski

Meanwhile Mexicans get to watch as their nation practically falls into being the US's bitch either losing more territory or the entire nation


Wilson7277

Looking at this sub as a Canadian: Either the USA's bitch, Britain's bitch, France's bitch, chopped up to be a bit of everyone's bitch, or a republic. The last one doesn't immediately sound bad but is a horror story if you know anything about the Canadian constitution and Crown-First Nations treaties.


GreatHornedRat_UWU

Now you know how I feel as a Canadian! It's either we get annexed by the U.S.A., or be UK 2.0.


Grijnwaald

Don't blame us for your being Belgian.


E-2k7-Quiz

Bro, i would make you stay where you are, but i didn't make da map yet.


Rmivethboui

Well would you like to become the Belgian Free State


Dragoark

It's a miracle your country still exists


a_desperate_DM

Rewrite Belgiums history with black Jack and hookers then


mattmanh42

Hey now sometimes I just like to make a burgundy


petrimalja

As a Finnish person, I feel your pain. The only times when Finland isn't just exactly the same or absorbed by Russia is when the Nazis win.


AustrianSovietGuy

As an Austrian, I feel you


Ahidman

Als een mede Belg(in Vlaanderen) weet ik hoe het voelt.


Davidiying

Well here they balkanize us without any regards to the actual ethnic composition of the country (Spain)


Qeuzee

As a Lithuanian I feel you, Lithuania seems to get split between Russia, Poland and Germany quite abit


Twist_the_casual

I am Korean Tell me about it


StuckInTheJar

Meanwhile Poland is a conundrum: either a Intermarum superpower or non-existent at all.


[deleted]

Sorry, in my headcanon your destiny is to be split between France and the Netherlands, Belgians. You're not even real Belgae...posers...


mars_gorilla

Sorry about that, northern French/southern Dutch/western German/cross-channel British/north-western Luxembourgish person


Visual_Internet_7614

The only alternative history I could think for Belgium is what if Lotharingia survived and had all of modern day Belgium.


StrayC47

What have you done


Pontifexmaximus7z

You shouldn't exist


ThePacific1254

Sometimes you become the Dutch's bitch


CloseFungus

Not me, I imagine a world where Belgium never let go of the Kongo and sparked WWIII cuz of it.


ChaosPatriot76

Not true! Sometimes you get to be Flanders-Wallonia!


theflemmischelion

Also known as Germany's Bitch


_andyyy_

Same with Belarus, either getting annexed by Russia, Poland or Lithuania or even worse becomeing a ge\*man colony under the kaiserreich or baltic Reichskommisarat


TheMaginotLine1

Ok I have to write one, Belgium conquers the Netherlands and Luxenbourg to become the Kingdom of Greater Belgium