T O P

They constantly denigrate the very experts they beg to fix them when they get the Vid or IVM poisoning.

They constantly denigrate the very experts they beg to fix them when they get the Vid or IVM poisoning.

MedicalJargon-itis

As a physician, I didn't go to all that school and do all that work to **not** help people. We take care of whoever we see in whatever way is best. As soon as I start evaluating people's life choices (outside of prognostication/triage) to decide whether I want to help them, I feel like I'm betraying the public trust


twotonekevin

This guy Hippocratic oaths


LiteBriteKid

100% respect this and agree with you. People come in all the time for self inflicted medical issues. You want to not treat people who don’t get vaccines? What about diabetics that don’t take insulin properly? Drug addicts that overdose? Alcoholics that get alcohol poisoning? Suicide attempts? Car crash victims that were driving like idiots? Snowboarders that breaks an arm? All choices people make calculating or at least knowing the risks involved and sometimes still need medical help. You might as well help no one then, since we all “chose to do” the thing that landed us in the hospital at some time in our lives. Moral superiority over vaccines is quite disgusting. Everyone should have informed consent and choice in all medical treatments and not be denied care due to someone else judging their choices. Judge away, but no one has the right to deny care based on it.


ferociousPAWS

Thank you. This is the point I’ve been trying to make for weeks here and I just get downvoted to hell. All these people pushing this idea that some people deserve to die and in the same breath believe they’re morally superior for trying to prevent spread of the very thing they want people to die of. Nobody deserves to die of covid. Even if you’re a fuckin idiot.


prominenceVII

Yeah, I get that it's frustrating that the non-vax crowd are needlessly making this pandemic worse, but it's completely unethical for physicians to prioritize or ignore patients based on their personal choices. They have to take everyone that comes in equally, and that's the way it should be.


Terramotus

Except that this already happens all the time when there are limited resources. Alcoholics have trouble getting liver transplants and smokers heart transplants, and triage, in general happens when resources are stretched too thin. This isn't some abstract annoyance. People are suffering and dying because people with self-inflicted injuries are overloading the system. Anti-vaxxers don't deserve to die for their stupidity, but I find it unethical that people with problems that couldn't have been easily been fixed with a simple jab are being turned away because hospitals are full. How is that ethical? By all means, treat the anti-vaxxers, but they need to go when others need those beds.


cowlinator

I've seen some disgusting comments like that. But I've also seen more nuanced ones saying that anti-vaxers should be deprioritized in triage because they are unlikely to be saved.


cowlinator

Don't forget criminals who got shot, drunk drivers, anti-vaxers with measels, and more. I'm as pissed as anybody at people who endanger the public, especially anti-vaxers, but in this country we do not allow extra-judicial executions by medical negligence.


Riaayo

The problem is that our hospitals are overrun and people aren't getting care because they're full of covid patients - the majority of which didn't get vaccinated. So yeah, the public is starting to get pissed that these people who don't take precautions are fucking everyone else out of the care *they* need. I'm not really of the opinion that choices etc should bar someone from care, but if you have to pick between someone who did the right things and a selfish prick who thumbed their nose at a pandemic... like idk, people are tired of these people shitting all over our society then demanding all the perks of that society they don't want to participate in.


Fattydog

Hospitals have always been stretched by people doing stupid things. Probably half of everyone in ER/A&E is there because they’ve been careless or stupid. Putting conditions on medical treatment is a hugely slippery slope.


Viperbunny

Thank you! I have chronic health issues and a mother who also made me I'll and convinced me I needed the ER for many years (it is so hard to prove medical abuse but she medically abused me). The ER is almost always full. You are going to wait in the waiting area. There will be times you can't get a bed. There will be times you receive worse care because of a situation. This all happened frequency BEFORE Covid. I can tell stories of how the ER sent me home twice with a life threatening condition. I can tell you how I went to one hospital who told me I had gastritis and was fine, and ended up in another for a week because I was so weak I almost died. These aren't new problems. Covid is showing the huge cracks in our system, but I promise they have always been there.


[deleted]

Healthcare is a perk of society? here I thought everyone said it was a human right and we should all get free Healthcare. what a shitty take. just because someone is an idiot doesn't mean they don't deserve the same equal treatment from a medical professional who's job it is to take care of people especially if they're the ones paying for it.


iMakeHerBulbasaur

Are you vaccinated?


[deleted]

I hate that this pandemic has normalized asking people about their medical history. My vaccination status and medical history is none of your business and you shouldnt be going around just asking people that, what a rude question.


prowness

People have been downvoting you because they assume you not answering is tantamount to saying you’re not vaccinated, but I understand your point. Regardless of one’s feelings on asking if one is vaccinated, the query is not relevant to the discussion and only serves to discredit your argument by discrediting you.


[deleted]

exactly. and I couldn't care less and that's exactly why I'm not answering. it's not anyone's business no matter how much they feel their entitled to an answer


Vraivrai

Agree. The physician must educate beforehand, not punish after the fact.


kingcrith

OP should be rewarding this man some deltas


ExhibitionistBrit

I hundred percent agree with you here. I do however wish some of the people who turned out to be wrong about Covid publicly admitted they were wrong and tried to right some of the damage they have done.


MedicalJargon-itis

Dr Drew (of "Loveline" fame) initially downplayed COVID, but publicly apologized in April 2020 for not taking it seriously enough. He's by far not the biggest offender, but he is an actual physician so it was good to see him own up.


ExhibitionistBrit

That is good to hear but as of late 2021 that is the first example of an apology I’ve been exposed to.


vincentvangobot

Curious about your thoughts around other people not being able to get help due to overwhelmed systems.


MedicalJargon-itis

That's where it gets into triage I was mentioning. You take all comers and help how you can, but once there's a shortage of something you have to make decisions. It's appropriate to triage based on all appropriate mortality predictors (age, comorbidities, and in this case immunization) to decide what's next. The problem is, it's not felt to be ethical to hold back resources "just in case" more patients come in that might benefit more from them. It sucks when there's no ICU beds for a trauma, but you can't really keep a couple ICU beds "saved" for trauma when a COVID patient (regardless of vaccination status) needs it


TombombBearsFan

You should tell more people this..


chuckbassisbritish

Sadly this. I just can’t in good conscious not help. That’s why I became a doctor. Yes I judge you but that doesn’t affect how I treat you while I’m wearing my white coat. What I say about you yo my friends and family maybe something you don’t want to hear.


dacandyman0

I keep seeing this sentiment - but it's not about evaluation of life choices or conditions people are born with or anything else like that: the CHOICE to not get the vaccine if you are medically eligible puts MY health and the health of the community are large at risk. Let them go recieve medical treatment from a facility that holds their same views instead of burdening the rest of society ... oh wait


MedicalJargon-itis

We treat drunk drivers even though they endanger others. We treat smokers, even though second hand smoke is dangerous. We treat child molesters, wife beaters, and all the rest because that's what our role in society is. Like you said, there's nowhere else for them to go. Patients have always been short-sided, scared, misled, or just plain ignorant. You learn that very early on. Its manifestation during the pandemic isn't new, it's just on a big enough scale for the general population to start noticing.


Lethik

Yeah, but none of those are highly contagious and transmissible. If child molestation was transmissible and highly contagious, I'm pretty sure that hospitals would stop treating child molesters. Especially if they knew that treating them would just put them back on the streets to infect other people with child molestation.


Viperbunny

No, they wouldn't. Medical care is a human right. People are entitled to care regardless of what you think of them as a person. They can be a literal monster and it doesn't matter. That is not the job of a doctor to decide. You fix the patient you get.


dodadoBoxcarWilly

Ah yes, a redditor putting the lives of child molesters over someone who doesn't get the covid vaccine. How am I not surprised in the least?


[deleted]

Serious medical ethics question: What are the limits of the Hippocratic oath with respect to doing no harm? If you save the life of a known child molester, would you not be causing harm to future victims? In the stated case in the meme, does saving these people not harm society as a whole?


MedicalJargon-itis

Fun fact to start, "do no harm" wasn't actually in the Hippocratic Oath. *Primum non nocere* (first, do no harm) is a Latin phrase, but Hippocrates was Greek. It has generally been adopted by the medical field though, you're right. We don't know the future. Any of my patients could cause a terrible car crash that kills a family of 5 next week. A patient struggling with substance abuse that ODs might be hitting that "rock bottom" that they use to turn their life around. We can't play those mental games, and honestly that's not a physician's job or role in society. If a patient on death row tries to commit suicide and they bring them to the ER, attempts will be made to save them. Medicine is not meant to be a punitive arm for society. That's what judges, juries, and incarceration are for.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Vynlovanth

> No, you would not be. The molester would. Their choices haven't been made yet. I really like this answer. All of it makes many great points, but this in particular struck me as both optimistic and true. There is no guarantee for what will come to be.


rat_haus

Thank you for your service.


meemawuk

Exactly. Much respect to you. People who say “don’t treat the obese”, “don’t treat the addicted”, “don’t treat the stupid” are the real idiots. What makes humans successful is our ability to protect the weak. What convinces people to change is not conflict. It’s compassion and showing them a better way.


cob33f

I’m with you on treatment, but how would you feel about insurance companies being able to deny hospital bill claims for unvaccinated folks?


MedicalJargon-itis

Private companies I guess can do whatever they want and history has shown me it's a race to the bottom with insurance companies. The tough thing about population statistics and public health is that you can look at trends and large numbers, but not necessarily individual cases. There are still fully vaccinated patients that are going to ICUs and dying from COVID. Definitely far fewer than non-vaccinated, but not zero. That means it's impossible to point to any one unvaccinated death and say it *absolutely* wouldn't have happened if they'd had the vaccine. There's a non-zero chance it still would have. But, insurance companies deal in the aggregate, so they look at 1,000 non-vaccinated deaths and say it could be *way less* and just deny them all. That makes me feel icky.


cob33f

Thank you for the well thought out answer. This website says that unvaccinated folks are 49 times more likely to be hospitalized and 32 times more likely to die than vaccinated folks. Those are some big numbers. And for this insurance claims question, I’m not really as concerned about the deaths as I am the hospitalizations. I can’t think of any other public ailment or vice that would make someone 49 times more likely to be hospitalized compared to the control group. Are smokers 49 times more likely to be hospitalized than non-smokers? Yet we charge them more for insurance. If we feel icky about denying them claims, can we at least throw them in a high risk insurance pool? https://publichealthinsider.com/2021/09/03/new-data-dashboard-tracks-covid-19-risk-for-unvaccinated-people-compared-to-vaccinated-people/


def_not_a_hotdog

An important thing to remember with this data is that if a person hasn’t had their second dose in their system for two weeks, they’re reported as unvaccinated.


mm_mk

Would you want insurance companies to deny claims for drug overdoses?


mister_brian

As a doc you have an oath. As a human being you have limited resources. There are always people in need of help. Sometimes it’s a child with a gunshot wound and you’re telling me domestic terrorists get equal treatment. “Both sides” is a problem for the common good.


r0gue007

Meth addicts get heart valve infections frequently. They cost $170k to replace, Medicaid pays for multiple. NPR had a great piece on it. The slope is indeed slippery… just not sure where it goes.


ominouslatin

Exactly. Don’t treat anybody with “X” condition because of “Y” - nobody passes that test.


Nozsc

Don’t treat people who are obese with Covid because they’ve had enough time to get into shape by now.


DoILookSatiated

Exactly! This is a great example of why this thinking is dangerous. I think you’re getting downvoted because people think you’re advocating for this rather than offering an example.


[deleted]

It leads to fascism and eugenics.


PeeledPancake

Medicaid is a government run program its not for profit (ideally of course). So they have no ability to choose X over Y, insurance companies do cause well they are privatized and for profit. Not saying whats right or wrong, just that they don't compare perfectly. Another country with UHC won't have insurance companies stopping coverage, because, there is no companies.


TheNarfanator

Hospitals should also show their prices before rendering services, but that's none of my business.


su1cidesauce

Unfortunately, if you refuse to treat patients for one thing, you can refuse to treat them for anything. It's a slippery slope and you don't want to push anyone down it. EDIT: geez. say something like "even stupid people deserve proper medical treatment" and all of reddit goes WHARRRRARBL


monkeyheadyou

If you need a new liver, but you refuse to quit drinking they will let you die. A lot of times they just won't consider doing it at all if your behavior caused the issue. So, why isn't that the slope? I hate when people complain about slippery slopes half way down.


traws06

It’s not for that reason. They don’t care about if you did it to yourself, they care about if they can trust you to make the best use of the organ. They ask you to prove yourself by stop drinking, using drugs, etc because the medications don’t allow you to drink or do most illegal drugs. They’re not gonna give an organ to someone who will waste it when someone who will use it correctly could get it instead. Basically: if you’re gonna die 2 years later from abusing it, we’ll give it to the person who will survive 15-20 years with it.


Ok_Opportunity2693

Similarly, we shouldn’t give medical care to idiots who poisoned themselves with horse dewormer or idiots who refused the vaccine, when the cost of giving them treatment is delaying care to cancer patients. Idiots will not make a good use of the extra years of life that they get from that medical care.


no_name_20

They don't "let" you die. You are simply placed further down on the list. They aren't choosing who gets to live and who dies, it's basically a rating system of who needs it more and who is going to benefit most from it. Because if we had a magical scenario where only 1000 people needed new livers, and there were 1000 available livers and they all had matches to the donors (like I said, magical scenario) then every single one of them would receive their new liver.


c08855c49

So you're saying....they give people higher on the list priority for treatment because of choices they made that did or did not contribute to their sickness? Kind of like how we are saying that people who didn't get the vaccine should be out further down the list and not be a priority for treatment because they made choices that ended up in being sick.


FuckAbbot

They are placed in order of priority. Priority of who is most likely to die when assessed. If someone came into the ER saying that couldn't breathe they would be cared for before the person with a headache. That's just human decency...


Ok_Opportunity2693

We don’t assign livers in order of priority, but instead in order of who is most likely to but the liver to good use. Let’s do the same for medical care. If we have to ration care then put those who won’t put the care to good use at the bottom of the list. Idiots who poison themselves with horse dewormer or refuse vaccines won’t make good use of their medical care.


CandidateFragrant799

I am tired of the "slippery slope" argument. It is getting thrown around for every necessary societal good. Can't have mail in voting because it's a slippery slope to voter fraud. Can't have universal health care because it's a slippery slope to communism. Can't have a vaccine mandate because it's a slippery slope to dictatorship. On and on. Give them notice that after X date, if you contract Covid and need medical attention, and are NOT vaccinated for a valid medical reason, you will not be treated.


naivemetaphysics

Well a vaccine mandate can be made on some level. There used to be one to attend public schools. I understand where you are coming from and if your place in line to get treatment is about how healthy you are, that is not a good system. Keeping people out cause they didn’t get the vaccine will not fix things. Imagine being kept away cause you smoke, or overweight, or have a chronic condition stemming from a car accident or drinking too much? We need a better healthcare system and forcing stuff down people’s throats give them all the more reason to hate and get people to agree with them. What I would like to see is more accountability, real accountability, to those that support and actively give platforms to those who spread misinformation. Giving the same time of day to someone spreading antivax junk “science” as they do someone who studies immunology is not okay and places that do this should be shut down. People can have free speech and we have no need to give people an audience. Also the voter fraud argument has been disproven. They don’t want mail in cause demographically more democrats would be voting that way. Please don’t buy in to that. Universal healthcare is socialist, not communism, and we used to have a strong socialist party in this country before we went to two party politics. I know the mayor of Milwaukee was Socialist for a while. As a closing, I feel for some communities where the government and medical professionals have tried to either harm or kill their people for years and years. Distrust is expected and part of the issue. I feel for those families and we don’t need to make a bad situation worse by just letting them die. I will say, I hate Jenny McCarthy with all my heart and refuse to watch masked singer cause of it.


[deleted]

You cannot have universal healthcare and decide some people are not worth caring for. Then it's not universal


perohn

The slippery slope argument is just looking ahead at unintended consequences. Are you for telling obese people that if they are not of a healthy weight by a certain date we will no longer treat diabetes, heart conditions, fatty liver, and any number of other conditions that kill way more than covid ever has or will?


arthurmadison

Your obesity and poor food choices don't make me fat or give me high cholesterol.


Runkleford

Can we please stop comparing obese people to willfully ignorant and selfish people who can infect others and are actually clogging up the healthcare system like the COVID deniers? I'm not even overweight and I feel like it's an insult to overweight people whenever this argument gets brought up. Being overweight isn't contagious and it's not an issue that can be fixed with two shots.


AngeloSantelli

Obesity is the biggest health problem threatening America. It’s time to stop giving a pass to these people. Most of the people under 60 hospitalized with Covid are obese. 78% I believe was the the number from USA Today (from Bill Maher). It’s time to come down hard on these people clogging the hospitals because of their own lack of any control over their health. 💯


Runkleford

This guy is an anti-vaxxer trying to divert the blame from COVID deniers onto obese people.


arthurmadison

And he's so thick he can't comprehend that Covid is communicable and obesity isn't.


Runkleford

He's either fucking stupid or dishonest. Or maybe both.


Dicks4hir3

They downvote you because they’re fat and don’t want to recognize that their fatness costs the health care community far more resources than covid. Definitely time to start shaming obese ppl the same way we shamed smokers. I want type two diabetics with amputated feet on tv talking about “it was just one Twinkie…” in tears. I want pictures of fatty livers and clogged arteries on every McDouble and Popeyes box. Obesity is a self inflicted disease.


arthurmadison

>Obesity is a self inflicted disease. And covid is communicable. Which is why your comparison is invalid.


Dicks4hir3

Okay so then do ppl who don’t get the flu shot (which has plenty of long term studies) and end up needing hospitalization because of pneumonia deserve treatment?


Runkleford

LOL I'm not fat. But sure, whatever helps you feel better about your shitty arguments, dude.


Dicks4hir3

My shitty arguments are based in fact. Obesity related deaths makes covid look like a fucking joke. I’m talking half a million massive, gelatinous, morbidly obese bodies per year in America alone. And it’s sad af because they did it to themselves as we cheered “yas queen, you’re beautiful! Do you!”. Disgusting


arthurmadison

Your shitty arguments are based in your ass. Covid is communicable. How is obesity contagious?


Dicks4hir3

I’m not saying unvaxxed ppl are making the smartest decision. I’m saying they deserve the finest health care we have to offer just like anyone else


Runkleford

I'm all for fitness since I work out almost every day. But this crisis isn't about obesity, it's about the dipshits who refuse to take the vaccine or mask up. And obese people aren't contagious, the COVID deniers are. I don't know why you people are singling out obese people when there are people like Joe Rogan who aren't obese being dipshit COVID deniers and getting sick.


AngeloSantelli

Lol Joe Rogan took ivermectin and recovered in 3 days. I don’t think he’s the best comparison for your…ahem…”argument” And before saying it’s about being rich, nah the monoclonal is free in Texas and Florida


vinoa

Addiction is a terrible disease, whether it's cigarettes or sugar. You have a system where it's more affordable to eat junk food. The problem isn't as simple as these people simply eat too much, therefore they brought it on themselves. I see them as addicts, and they should be treated in much the same way. On the other hand, anti-vaxxers are willfully ignorant, and we've come to a point where they're becoming dangerous. I've never seen an obese person and feared for my health.


AngeloSantelli

A dozen eggs costs 98¢ near me, a McDouble $2.19 A tub of low fat cottage cheese costs $1.69, a Beefy 5 Layer burrito costs $1.89 A pound of bananas costs 69¢, a hash brown from wawa costs 99¢ A can of tuna costs 98¢, a plain NYC style slice costs $3.25 I mean come on it’s actually a lot cheaper to eat healthy, that’s the highest cop out excuse. And if you’re scared of the 50% of people in the country not taking the Covid “flu-style” yearly shot then I hate to tell you that the real world has some actual very real terrors you may have to face


vinoa

Now do the time, and I think you'll find that all of the junk options are infinitely faster. I'm not saying there's no personal responsibility, but it's definitely more nuanced than people just eating like shit. I have a hard time making that distinction with the willfully ignorant. I used to think there was no harm in being stupid, so long as you weren't hurting others. COVID threw that belief out of the window.


InoPelligrino

People also forget eating disorders and mental health play a big factor into obesity and food deserts


Dicks4hir3

Um for like 30 bucks you can get a big ass bag of rice, 5 lbs of frozen broccoli, and 5 lbs of chicken breasts. That’s enough for a week and a halfThey’re not victims or addicts, they’re undisciplined weaklings. And no. Most unvaxxed ppl are black and brown. Considering that the US govt infected them with syphilis and forced opiate addiction on them, I totally understand why they’re skeptical of a vaccine that got fda approved like a month ago with no long term studies. I get it.


useles-converter-bot

5 lbs in mandalorian helmets is 1341988.17 helmets.


converter-bot

5 lbs is 2.27 kg


Dicks4hir3

I hate you


converter-bot

5 lbs is 2.27 kg


Dicks4hir3

I hate you


AngeloSantelli

I mean honestly it might take something like that to start curbing this monumental health crisis.


Dicks4hir3

The fact that NO ONE is talking about this is mind blowing. Like vaping has anti vaping campaigns and doesn’t incure a tenth of the health care costs as obesity. We don’t just not speak out, we encourage it! Bunch of obese chicks flashing their folds on the cover of a magazine like “look at me! I’m going to be dead in 10 yrs and I’m setting my children up for a life time of health problems and an early death!” And those same ppl will have the nerve to talk shit about unvaxxed ppl? Like lower your blood pressure to 140/90 (which is still hypertensive) and then start giving health advice


Runkleford

Those who are hospitalized with COVID are there because of COVID. Not obesity. Yes obesity makes them more vulnerable but what put them in the hospitable is most likely because they didn't get vaccinated and/or didn't mask up and social distance. Stop trying to divert from the ACTUAL cause of their hospitalization.


EbenHSHD

Obesity costs the US more lives and resources than any other health problems. Sure, you can’t give your obesity to someone else, but it is avoidable, manageable, “curable” and those resources could have been spent on other people with diseases that can’t be avoided or cured. Even as a healthy person your life could be improved if everyone else managed their weight better.


Runkleford

No one is arguing that obesity isn't a health issue. But comparing obesity to COVID denialism is pretty insulting to overweight people since obesity is not contagious, obesity isn't easily remedied for the most part with two shots, and obesity isn't the reason why the hospitals are currently swamped with sick people.


EbenHSHD

The point being resources are constantly being drained by people who hurt themselves. The number of people who die each year to obesity or otherwise neglecting their own health blows covid out of the water. If you're going to deny a person access to medical care because they refuse to take care of themselves and those around them we might as well apply that to everyone across the board because there's no reason not to. I'm a healthy person who doesn't smoke or drink and I'm a healthy weight. I'm also up to date on my vaccines (covid included) and when I do get sick I take my medication as prescribed. I have no traffic violations, no criminal record, and I don't use illegal drugs. What you're saying we should do is only allow people like me to receive medical care because I do everything right and I'm not a drain on resources and I do what I can to not end up in a hospital. The fact that thought is even crossing people's minds in fucking insane. Like I get the sentiment, but it's moronic. Here is a little foresight for you: The majority of people not receiving the vaccine or outright denying covid are conservative republicans. For some idiotic reason the virus has been politized and what you're trying to, in their minds, is force them to conform to your political ideology. That's how they are going to treat this. What do you think they will do when the parties swing back to red majority? You've introduced and passed legislation allow hospitals to deny citizens their right to medical treatment. The whos and whys don't matter because that's the bottom line. Republicans will take what you fought so hard for and turn it against you. Registered dems, liberals, independents, ects will no longer have access to medical care. Hell, just for argument's sake let's keep it about the vaccine and just say anyone who has been vaccinated will no longer be allowed medical treatment because "they did it to themselves" or whatever. You're asking for a person's rights to be stripped because you don't like their behavior. I get it, they are being idiotic and dangerous, but you cannot start stripping away basic human rights to force them into doing what they should really be doing. People like you make converting them back into reasonable people so fucking hard. They see this shit and it validates their opinion of "them" as being evil and wanting to strip their rights. When I see stuff like this it just makes me sad. You are just like them, but on this side of the camp. You both will do horrible shit to get the other side to do what you want and you have a million and one justifications or reasons for doing it. It really is a damn shame.


perohn

I used obesity because a dear friend of mine died recently. She was told lose weight or die, she chose death. Her health affected many people, I would call that, ignorant and selfish. She also used up a lot of Dr time that could have saved others. I have been vaxed, so I am not a denier. And if two shots fix it, why did my wife just get a third shot? Now look at all of the life choices that land people in the hospital. But to go with something contagious, think about aids. The majority with it, chose risky behavior even after it was known, what spread it. Should we have denied most aids patients treatment?


Runkleford

Whatever. 2 shot or 3 shots, you get the point that obesity isn't fixed by taking 2 or 3 shots. I can't say how hard it is to lose weight since I've never been overweight my entire life but judging from the accounts of many people it's not easy at all.


[deleted]

You don't sound like a very good friend.


chris2155

You are so far from reality and must have literally zero idea what liberty and freedom mean. Should we ban all fat people from emergency visits when they have heart attack if they chose to eat McDonald's everyday for 30 years? If you smoke a pack of cigarettes every day your whole life should you be denied chemo treatment for lung cancer on that grounds alone? If you don't sign up for the continous experimental treatment plan (for an unknown amount of time) on this relatively new pandemic then you can't get medical service after less then a year of people being vaccinated and no medium to long term data?!? Thats what he and everyone means with the slippery slope arguement, it's not that hard of an idea to grasp... such an extremist stance this quickly with this being the expected new norm for unvaccinated to get CUT off from an ESSENTIAL service like all health care, well, it just looks like hardcore virtue signaling and, you are entitled to your opinion, but I am extremely concerned about this kind of hivemind mentality here on Reddit recently.


su1cidesauce

I'm not saying not to get vaccinated you inbred walnut what I mean is if they can ban stupid people they'll find an excuse to ban any "undesirable," and as a fat queer person I'm practically first in line


chris2155

Sorry I mean I slipped a little bit of my own opinion in there and mixed in with what you were saying originally with the lines blurred a bit with the way I communicated. Unvaccinated or vaccinated, the main point still stands for itself.


SporkOfThor

Why are you comparing them to fat people? We don't get fat by being around fat people. We get Covid if we're around anti-vaxx, anti-mask people who spread Covid. Or we get outcompeted for healthcare by them when they get Covid or overdose on Ivermectin. This is still the "me" mentality. My rights, my freedom, my beliefs. Mine. Everyone else? Fuck them. Spread virus to elderly, sick vulnerable people and they die? My rights, my freedom, my beliefs. Mine. Everyone else? Fuck them. Spread misinformation convincing people not to wear masks and get vaccinated and cause deaths? My rights, my freedom, my beliefs. Mine. Everyone else? Fuck them. I get Covid or overdose on Ivermectin? I'll take some hurt or sick person's hospital bed away from them. My rights, my freedom, my beliefs. Mine. Everyone else? Fuck them. What about all the damage they've done? What about all the other people they've hurt and killed? Are we just going to focus on coddling people intent on murder/suicide who don't care if they kill your grandma because they're intensely focused on themselves? Even when Ronald Reagan recognized that emergency rooms couldn't lock people out if they didn't have health insurance or a handful of money, we have to recognize that slamming the door on someone because they're not able to afford healthcare is cruel. Even if they don't "deserve it" for some reason - money, self-destructive behavior. And then we have people actively doing damage to those around them by spreading both lies and disease. Harming people and then denying people access to healthcare because you want it for yourself because you got hurt trying to kill them? How is this not enraging? How is taking up a hospital bed in an overstrained medical system not a further attack on fellow Americans and our healthcare system.


chris2155

I can be unvaccinated and still care about all other people equally. I can lock down in times around breakouts especially, when there's more then a 0.1 percent chance I'll ge the virus. Whats with these extremes. You act like whether people are vaccinated or not is the only possible judge of character that is needed to determine if they care about spreading this or not, and whether they are good people or complete selfish pieces of shit. It's not so black and white though. I can understand why you think what you think. But unvaccinated people don't ALL fall into the same ignorant antivax, Russian bot, conspiracy nut, looney bin type of person. That is the true virtue signaling and dangerous talk I see popping up more and more like this and its straight up messed up this early into this pandemic and this early into the continous treatment vaccine plan, relatively speaking. Whos driving this bus to turn us all on eachother over what should be a personal choice in my opinon? Just half a year ago the overwhelming public opinion was against vaccine passports and if you mentioned it you were a conspiracy nut. And now its becoming a weird reality all over the world. I'm not making it my life mission with my words to make any vaccinated peoples choice wrong though, that's the difference. It's your damn choice and thats fine. I just think this kind of 2 tiered thinking sets a danger precedent for the way where the old temporary becomes the new permanent and then the real truth gets blurred on ALL sides and no one knows what the fuck is going on in the bigger picture of things.


696Dark

You're a fucking Nazi.


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processedmeat

If you don't like the obesity example how about smoking, they are harming others


Runkleford

That's a better example. Except public smoking for the most part is extremely restricted for the past couple of decades. This would be a better argument a few decades ago when smokers were actually harming others as well but not so much now anymore. And I'm sure there are already restrictions for things like transplants for smokers.


traws06

I feel the best option is to have insurance and hospitals calculate how much more non vaccinated cost in healthcare resources/cost and adjust their insurance appropriately. If it turns out they cost on average 8 times as much, then their health insurance should cost 8 times as much


su1cidesauce

Again, no. Health care should be free for everyone, even the stupid people, or people who really do need it will not be able to afford it.


RideAndShoot

If you give them that power, then every life choice you make will be reflected with $$$. You eat fast food once a week, 5% higher rate. You smoke? 20% higher rate. You do any water sports? 20% higher rate.


Ok_Opportunity2693

What’s wrong with that? If you make choices that lead to higher medical costs then you should have to pay more. Otherwise you’re just forcing everyone else to pay for your elevated level of medical care. The key word is **choices**. This shouldn’t apply to naturally-occurring conditions that aren’t the fault of the patient.


SailorET

I wouldn't want somebody holding off triage while they determine if I've been vaccinated or have a reasonable exemption. Treat everyone according to their medical needs. Insurance has the records to prove whether or not they're vaccinated and can refuse to pay for people who refuse CDC guidelines. That way there's no "cheaper" treatment than prevention.


no_name_20

That directly violates the oath they take. And these words are the exact reason why that oath exists in the first place. In medicine, no one should ever hold the power to determine who is and is not worthy of life. The ironic part of it all, from everyone who I have heard say they shouldn't treat anti-vaxxers, is that they're the same people also support universal healthcare. And before I'm attacked, I'm not anti vax. But I am not going to stand on a false moral high ground and look down on those with different philosophies and wish death on them or encourage lack of treatment which may result in death. You know, because I'm not a sociopath.


theholderbeast

Exactly my thoughts. When you start deciding who does and doesn’t get treatment. You take a step closer to Nazi Germany. Please don’t be Nazi Germany.


saninicus

Hippocratic oath first do no harm.


Thumnale

Bad take.


Trelonis

Op is going to far I agree, but I share the frustration he's feeling.


shreken

And you are all presenting a terrible solution to that frustration. We already have a solution for this with organ transplants. You still get treatment, you should just get lower priority than an equally ill vaccinated patient.


VitalMaTThews

HoSPiTaLs sHoUld ONly CaRE foR pEoPlE ThAt i ApRoVE Of


hookisacrankycrook

Conservatives do this all the time. From availability of birth control to abortion they want doctors to be able to refuse care for religious reasons. Right now they are doing it to transgender people.


reg_everyday_norm_mf

The people I hate are doing bad things on a regular basis... Hey guys, I have an idea for what I'm gonna be doing today!


mkmlls743

Or fat ones or smokers or lazy people who don't work out or people who eat fast food or people who believe in an afterlife. You can't have a system that takes advantage of people in their most needed moment and expect everyone to trust a system of profit from suffering. They charge you even if they fail. Imagine a mechanic making your car undrivable and sends you a bill anyway. Also I'm pro vaccine


Dicks4hir3

I think something that isn’t talked about is that, for all the talk of antivax white trumpers, the largest population of unvaxxed ppl are minorities. And considering that within living memory the govt was infecting these ppl with syphilis and forcing opiate addictions, why wouldn’t they be suspicious or skeptical?


Diablo689er

Isn’t this basically the same argument as “we shouldn’t be giving abortions to people that should have used basic birth control?”


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Dicks4hir3

I guess they shouldn’t waste their resources on smokers with lung cancers, obese ppl with heart problems, college girls with unwanted pregnancies, alcohol poisoning patients, opiate overdoses, etc. I mean all of these ppl are suffering the consequences of stupid choices therefore unworthy of medical treatment right?


ctk041289

You’re spot on but these people will make up some illegitimate excuse to defend their madness.


Dicks4hir3

They’re just hateful dude. Everyone deserves health care, the amount of self inflicted injuries and sicknesses a hospital sees a day is unreal. Unvaxxed ppl are no different and I hate seeing this demonization of them.


fr00d

These are all different than people who are blatantly going against the medical advice to get a vaccine, which is far easier than quitting smoking or fighting obesity. I don’t agree that we shouldn’t treat these people but if there’s a resource issue they should be deprioritized


Dicks4hir3

How is ppl blatantly going against medical advice to not smoke, not shove 4 twinkies in your face a day, not shove a needle in your arm, and not take an unprotected dick (all of which are proven to be harmful) any different than someone blatantly going against medical advice to take a vaccine that has 0 long term studies and just got fda approved like a month ago? I am not against vaccines but I see where they are coming from


ctk041289

‘Hey guys, medical professionals should totally let people die because I don’t agree with their decision.’ WTF is wrong with some of you?


CaldariWrath

It's funny. I've yet to see those who decline the vaccines hope for people to die, but here we are, vaccine supporters wishing death and a refusal of basic health care upon others... And yet, those same people who are hoping the anti-vax group get sick and die, who would refuse to offer health care to those who decline to be vaccinated, will be the same people who scream about "my body my choice" over Texas banning abortions.


ctk041289

Comments like these keep me on this site despite the abundance of ‘I’m a good person but these people should die!’ comments. I want people to get vaccinated but if they do not wish to, that’s their choice. Sick world we live in and unfortunately for some of us, we have to endure the crazies on both sides.


Weather08

It’s ridiculously hypocritical. Nobody can take a middle ground approach anymore.


[deleted]

it's all partisanship and tribalism. people like being liked.


[deleted]

what I find ironic is that the same people who profess the vaccine do it in the spirit of morality and good judgement but when it comes to others that don't share their viewpoint all that goes out the window and people can't help but say and suggest the most immoral and awful things like "idiots that don't get the vaccine deserve to die". the hypocrisy.


Suyefuji

It's not that I want them to die, but right now in my area if you have an unavoidable health emergency like a stroke or a heart attack, you sit in the ER for 5 hours and then die. It's been like this for 2 weeks now since our ICUs are filled with covid patients that take up a bed for a month or three before recovering and/or dying. How many stroke patients are being sacrificed due to vaccine ignorance? How many accidents, how many heart attacks, how many cancer patients are dying COMPLETELY PREVENTABLY because of unvaccinated patients? I'm not saying "haha fuk u go die", I just am frustrated that one person's refusal to take medical advice can kill not just themself but every damn person who needed that bed for the entire time they're dying. I want as many people saved as possible and this just isn't it.


frumundacheeze

dont be spouting lies there isn't a single hospital in the entire USA where you come in with a stroke or heart attack and "sit and wait for 5 hours" you are being intentionally hyperbolic and it fucking disgusting go fuck yourself


fr00d

If getting an abortion caused a preventable disease that took hospital resources away from others, I’d have the same opinion. You have a choice but the consequences are not my problem


[deleted]

and now you see the problem with government getting involved with citizens medical care, good job.


JustinMagill

Discrimination is the word your looking for


somethingaboutwhales

Hospitals treat all kinds of idiots every day. Trying to decide which idiots are worth treating is a recipe for disaster


StopBullyingBullys

Jesus. How quickly virtuous progressives that believe they embody all that is right in the world resort to woke authoritarian nonsense. These people don’t have a real progressive bone in their body.


General-Cheetah2398

Kinda feel like these posts are basically saying “get vaccinated do the right thing we want everyone to live...but if you don’t think that then it’s fine if you die”


xdtla

If they don't help, they're hypocrites. If they do, they're Hippocrates. Catch 22.


almightywhacko

Part of me agrees, but then you have to realize that emergency rooms exist because stupid people have been hurting themselves for decades with tools and equipment they don't know anything about. Idiots trying to deworm themselves are no different. With regards to anti-vax COVID sufferers.... if they survive these people tend to be the biggest evangelists for getting the vaccine and they speak the same idiot language as other anti-vaxxers.


RogueSpartan

The article about people ODing on ivermectin I'd a straight up lie but ok.


theholderbeast

Idk man, seems a bit radical to me. Not to mention you open Pandora’s box at that point.


tk-8356

Funny thing is that ivm is literally a wonder drug. My crazy tin hat wearing roomate bought some. I flipped the packaging over and showed him clear as day you aint even supposed to eat a horse thats taken it. Well i did some research and damn if it doesn't work. Japan is reporting an almost 100% success rate of treating covid with it. If doctors would help patients and prescribe Mectizan this whole thing would have been over a year ago. Procede to downvote this into oblivion.


ShadowSwipe

This post is a true Reddit take. Shocking that it got upvoted. If you confronted the people who did so are probably like “It was just a joke I’m not really encouraging doctors to let people die based on their life choices”. Sound familiar? People around here need to do some more self reflection.


SonOfHen

This is incredibly Toxic. You can easily apply the same “logic” to: smokers, people who choose to work in dangerous professions, people who drink, people who use drugs recreationally, people who choose to drive., etc-etc. And right now you’re thinking “well no that’s not the same” but it is. It is exactly the same. The hypocrisy and lack of empathy is outstanding— and I’m double vaxed and pro-vax. But I would never in my life put myself up on a pedestal and attempt to become the arbiters of deciding who deserves to live (get life saving treatment) and who deserves to die. Continuing this trend of thinking will lead society into dangerous territories; such as unqualified public internet opinion deciding on who gets treated based on status of beliefs and value. If you think this is okay, shame on you. Posts like these have one motive and that is to further divide us rather than unite. This is the problem.


The_Fortunate_Fool

And we shouldn't help gunshot victims, drug users, lung cancer from cigarettes, obesity-related issues... Yeah, hospitals should only be for healthy people! /s


nedasherman283

All those fat diabetics shouldn’t be getting help either… terrible post


peppernickel

It's a shame that so many people are so nasty about others.


Good-Bloke

Or the obese. Or those trying to change gender when all they really need is some counselling.


copper8061

A disgusting post


def_not_a_hotdog

This is like saying we shouldn’t treat obese patients, alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers…


mrazcatfan

There’s a tree out there you need to apologize to for wasting all the oxygen it produced for you.


frumundacheeze

What about fat people who eat to much and don't exercise, what about smokers, what about people who drive to wrecklessly, what about people who do extreme sports, what about people who do drugs. See how fucking stupidly idiotic, naïve and juvenile you meme is. go fuck yourself


tyrotio

>See how fucking stupidly idiotic, naïve and juvenile you meme is. go fuck yourself None of those examples are criticizing the very people they need to save them. So false equivalencies across the board here.


themagicprince

Edgy


Deesnuts77

You’re a piece of shit. Do you hear yourself? You’re wishing badness to other people. I hope you take a beat and think about what you are saying. That is evil and you should be ashamed of yourself.


EbenHSHD

Sorry, but we can’t allow healthcare to start picking and choosing who they treat, regardless of the justification. I understand the sentiment, but if this was allowed we’d be opening a horrific Pandora’s Box. Imagine if we allowed this then the senate swung to the other side and suddenly anyone who received a vaccine was being turned away at hospitals. Politics, left, right, center, does not belong in healthcare.


GraceMDrake

Refusing to treat them, no. Factoring into triage decision-making for allocation of scarce and needed ICU beds, on the other hand…


nay2d2

Stop shit posting for anti-vax karma, I’ve seen this post like 100 times now. This is a ridiculous bullshit stance on medicine clearly coming from someone with no medical background. I’m not anti-vax - this is simply not how medicine works.


Beefy_G

They want to do everything themselves all up until they fuck up and nearly kill themselves. That's when they pull the old switcheroo and find modern medicine a necessity. A bunch of hypocrits, those ones are.


RRettig

Don't forget that after modern medicine saves their lives they give all the credit to jebus.


FlamingSteve

If doctors stopped treating people who were there because of their own choices they would have like 4 patients


Woden888

As distasteful as it is sometimes, it’s not medically ethical to deny someone treatment for being a moron. Although if it got to triage...


gen3stang

Reddit: We need universal Healthcare! Also Reddit: We shouldn't treat those people!


CaptTelus

Women who don’t use birth control shouldn’t be able to get abortions…


piratehcky6

I don't think we should waste resources on fat people, we know more about how fatness makes you unhealthy, we have peer reviewed studies, it takes a really long time to get fat. You know what, same with drug overdoses... Let them die. Smokers... Why bother? Same with all preventable illnesses, am I right? I mean, if someone could have prevented a disease, why help them? Turns out, 20 to 40 percent of diseases are preventable. That would really clear up some beds. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/p0501-preventable-deaths.html


pabloescobruh6969

Completely disagree. I hope you have the same opinion for smokers with lung cancer, obese people and drunk drivers. On a side note, I’m fully vaxxed


wirelessengr

Like you contribute anything, just fuck right off


CatoFriedman

This is a barbarian uncivilized point of view.


ramblinray

Agree with the none of your business part


MidTownMotel

If the hospital is jammed up with the morons, and it continues to be a problem, then I’d absolutely support making unvaccinated patients wait while others get treatment.


MajorArchibald

So you are for denial of giving people treatment? I understand they may have done it to themselves, but how many people end up in the ER because of a stupid decision they made themselves. Example using their hand to clear a snowblower. Just because someone is stupid does not give a hospital or anyone the right to deny life saving service. Anyone who says otherwise is a different type of stupid and evil.


MidTownMotel

If the droves of idiots are causing problems for non-idiots, they can be made to wait for the non-idiots to receive treatment. (When the situation is dire for the non-idiot.) That’s my final answer.


KamalasKackle

That’s how I feel about fat people, cigarette smokers, murderers, rapists, pedophiles and drug dealers. Just kidding I’m not a piece of shit like the OP is


Corburrito

This is wildly immoral talk. So let’s not treat overweight people, or people with cancer from smoking, or bicyclists that aren’t wearing a helmet, or any other super preventable things. Maybe check your moral compass from time to time.


Nytloc

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2052297521000883 Read it and exist in shame.


ozzalot

If you think a 31% relative risk of death due to IVM is good, just wait until you find out the same statistic for the vaccines 😂


CandidateFragrant799

ROFL. "Science Direct". Might as well say "I am a Christian and I don't believe in science" ​ And i don't say this to stop you from taking IVM. I want you to take it in large doses so we can keep reducing the conservative vote.


miss_ana

ScienceDirect is a database of journals and articles. There’s no issue with using anything from there as a resource


PyroPeter911

While there is a whole lot of christian fake science disinformation out there I don’t think ScienceDirect is one of them. Some of them are getting better at hiding the crazy though. Why do you think they or this article are disreputable?


Nytloc

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/ I don’t know anything about Science Direct, it was the first thing that popped up. Will the official site of Nobel Prize work for you, anti-intellectual?


Trelonis

Article is from 2015 and has nothing to do with covid. No one is claiming that it not a real drug. The point is that it doesn't treat covid and taking it in doses meant for livestock is dangerous and stupid.


Nytloc

Can you find me any notable person who is rummaging through their farm animals’ medicine to nom on some delicious dewormer to own the libs, because it’s all I’ve heard about since Joe Rogan took it, and I severely doubt that’s what he did.


Trelonis

Dunno about "owning the libs" but people are doing it and it's a problem. I posted this elsewhere on the thread, but [here it is again. ](https://www.insider.com/oklahomas-emergency-rooms-are-clogged-with-people-overdosing-on-ivermectin-2021-9)


Nytloc

https://twitter.com/conceptualjames/status/1434277243707068416?s=21 And you’re the second person to run this fake story at me. Let’s see how far it goes! https://nhssequoyah.com/


Trelonis

Actually I'm if we're talking about this thread, then I'm the same person.


Aurvant

I’m pretty sure the reason why people are clamoring for Ivermectin in any form they can get their hands on is because, back in March, [the World Health Organization advised it could be used in clinical trials only.](https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/who-advises-that-ivermectin-only-be-used-to-treat-covid-19-within-clinical-trials) Personally, I’m trusting the vaccines myself, but it doesn’t appear that all of this weird Ivermectin craze came from nowhere.


HallOfJusticeIntern

You know the Rolling Stone story was faked, right?


eyegobblecock

Apply the same treatment to drug overdoses then. Why stop at anti vaxxers?


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ISitOnChairs

OP, should we turn obese (>50% of pop) people away from the hospital because that was entirely within their control? Heart attack victims, diabetics, and cardiovascular diseased ppl from excess weight can just fuck off and die quietly at home, right? I bet you're in that group. What about car crash victims? They chose to drive! We all know it's dangerous! Why should we help them, they knew it was low risk high consequence when they got their licence, they brought it on themselves! Why should we subsidize their willingness to take risk? You know what? Why not just mandate only people above 120 IQ can get healthcare because you could find myriad reasons to deny a dummy healthcare based on their choices. Wait! how about >120IQ + Risk Averse Traits. Let's add closed personality trait and ban open people because the open people are more likely to try new things. And trying new things is how you get hurt! Why stop there? just ban all of Nevada. Its too hot there. Only people that were responsible enough to move to a more temperate state deserve healthcare. Heat related illness? For the dummies of course,, dont treat them unless they live in Washington. But fuck Montana, too cold in the winter. Never treat a frostbite victim, it was in their choice to go outside. Its not fair that we spend 20,000$ per dose on anti-venom. Hafta get close to a snake to get bit. Refuse them treatment too! STI? It was their choice! even if they didn't know all the risks they fucked a deadbeat without protection. No healthcare for sluts! only pure virgins or monogamous married couples can have STI tests or treatment. Actually not even them. Cant get an STI of you don't have sex or have only one partner your whole life. STI are a punishment for sinners! And who are we to stand in defiance of Gods will? You absolute dunce. What happens when the political winds change? Your post is the dumbest thing I've seen all month, and i've been browsing *reddit.*