By - BloodRavenStoleMyCar
Probably because they are a relic from ten thousand years ago, the custodes are in universe comically at odds with the Imperium they live at the heart of, in the middle of a planet sized church they hate the idea of. They were built for an age of reason and enlightenment but have to exist in an age of super nightmares because it was commanded of them. Not only that, but they manipulate tons of shit from the shadows including the deaths of multiple High Lords just recently. The golden super armor is a facade for robot-like monsters who will do anything to defend a dead dream and if that ain't grimdark idk what is.
This is a great explanation!
I'll also add that they were basically supposed to just guard the palace and the Emperor himself, and not much else. Now all of a sudden they're sent all over the place to engage in offensive operations. As an army on the TT, I hate them, but I wouldn't mind as much if they were allowed to be one squad to add as a boost to another Imperial army. They're supposed to be super rare and yet here they are fielding small armies.
While I agree that GW needed to move the setting forward, for all the hits they've had, they've had some *severe* misses.
Thanks! I would say though that originally the Custodes were meant for battle not guarding, the Emperor had his 300 companions and then the palace guard but the rest of the ten thousand were engaged at key points across the crusade and unification wars, only recalled completely for the war in the webway. In Valdor there's literally 4 custodes guarding the entire Imperial palace including Valdor himself while the rest are with the Emperor in Merica.
In the Emperors Legion Trajan Valoris willingly repeals the act that kept them bound to the palace after acknowledging they've left the Imperium and it's battles alone for far too long.
I would imagine that if you as a heretic or otherwise see a squad of golden Bois landing on your planet you're pretty fucked
>I'll also add that they were basically supposed to just guard the palace and the Emperor himself, and not much else.
This is honestly 100% inaccurate. They were always involved, from The Unification Wars to The Great Crusade. Even after the events that led to The Emperor being sealed into the Golden Throne, they have always had war parties throughout the galaxy. Whether they were protecting individuals the doom sorters picked up on as being key to a certain outcome happening, or myriad other things, they've always veen much more than shiny cemetery guards.
Yes, they cloistered themselves to an extreme degree after Emps fell, but what they are doing now within The Indomitus Crusade is what they were honestly supposed to be doing the entire time. There is plenty of lore of Custodes war parties dropping in somewhere and just dropping the boom. They are beyond capable of fielding anything from a single Custode, to a freaking army, depending on needs.
That's how I feel about the Harlequins. I always thought they were at their best when they were just a single squad in an Eldar army.
At least the custodes have been expanded upon enough to justify a codex (even if imho it's still too thin), there's straight up 6 different boxes for harlequins, half of which are individual characters.
They work fine at platoon-level stuff (or a little more), which is like 2000 points and below.
Best reply I've read on reddit in a while. Excellent summary!
jesus that makes me want to dive so much deeper into the lore now. thats awesome!
Would recommend the watchers of the throne books for modern stuff or Valdor for an emphasis on how others view the custodes.
Is it accurate to say that the Emperor's reign was one of reason and enlightenment?
Compared to what came before? Yes. By today's standards? No.
If done properly I suppose I'd like it, but it's spawned an incredible amount of fan wankery and outright idolisation of them, especially Valdor. The osmotic barrier between fan attitude and lore writers is thin enough that that will eventually circle back and poison the already degrading grimdark theme of the Imperium. For evidence of that kind of thing observe that the lore treats the (fascist dystopia) of the Imperium a lot less satirically than it did a decade or two ago.
Things are being played more and more straight, and now we have a ton more people insisting life in the Imperium isn't so bad than we used to. This is the kind of thing that adds to that rot.
Have you read any of the recent custodes books? Valdor and Watchers of the Throne both paint Custodes in the pretty clear light that everyone who meets them is scared shitless of them because they're absolute monsters. In Valdor specifically a bunch of traitors are being hunted by them is quick and brutal. Valdor himself is talked up a lot true but I think for good reason, all of his few appearances are really memorable.
If your issue is just that fans don't understand the setting because they never actually interact with the source material than I agree 100%. People see big power armor man and assume he good guy when in fact he remorseless murderer who feels nothing and plays the politics of the Imperium to their gain at the cost of untold lives.
It's more the latter, yes. I like my physical monstrosity idea a lot, but if what you're talking about in the first paragraph was done in a way that got through to people so they stop making ten threads a week jacking them off that'd also be satisfactory.
This is the 40k fan base we are talking about, most people get their lore from mediocre wiki articles and YouTubers without context so that will never happen.
That is a massive pity. I enjoy the setting a lot, it's incredibly unique and at times often poetic in its terrible imagery, but it also has a real world benefit as being a warning against the dangers of fascism that people tend to want to explore. The more such things exist the better, and it's sad to see this one being watered down.
Honestly I think it's about the same, the guy who made death of hope made a great point that the online 40k community really isn't a good representation of it. It's mostly people who got their lore through tts or memes just parroting the same shit over and over again. 40klore has some great discussions now and then though and the books are generally pretty good quality these days. It's just easier to share shitty "haha krieg shovel, Emperor bad dad, dorn fortify" memes over and over so thats what people do.
Is the Emperor being a bad dad not true? He left Angron's dudes to die when anyone with half a brain could see that was an awful idea, would have taken maybe half an hour to save his guys and secure his loyalty. Every other son he helped or engaged in a contest or whatever and for this one he's all like 'sorry bud can't spare a few minutes to do the same with you', hope there are no bad feelings from watching them be slaughtered.
He definitely fucked up with Angron but I think it's not just him being a dickhead for no reason. I'm not sure if Angron was found before or after Mortarion but you could read it either as Big E being unwilling to risk one of his creations on a futile quest for independence again or the reason he later allowed Mortarion to try his depending when it takes place.
As well, Angron was already in pain and degenerating from the nails, he wanted to die on Nuceria, not win. This ultimately would have been better for all involved but this simple act shows how inhuman the Emperor is, Angron went from reunited son to war machine #12 in a single conversation. The Emperor was only really a dad to Alpharius and Horus, to the rest he was their boss. Who happened to be their genetic father.
Angron was the 17th primarch found; Mortarion was the 13th.
Corvus Corax was the 18th found, and seems to have been found before completing his revolution but was allowed to finish it before the Emperor moved in.
Also, the degeneration due to the nails wasn't studied until sometime after Angron was taken. It's pretty clear from *Ghost of Nuceria* and *After Desh'ea* that he was teleported up to the Emperor's ship, had a very brief argument where he begged for his compatriots' lives, and after the Emperor said "No" was immediately teleported to a XII Legion vessel for them to deal with (resulting in the first 7 captains being literally ripped apart).
It's a lot more likely that the Emperor deliberately let them die so that Angron wouldn't start off with a cadre of loyal warriors who had a history of rebelling against slavers.
That sounds a lot like bad dad to me lol. Angron wanting to die wise he could still have left him on the ship, but there was clearly a ton of upside and no downside to saving his dudes.
Dunno why you're getting so badly downvoted, you're entirely right.
Always happens when you call this sub out for custodes worship I'm afraid
The Custodes are the progeny of the Emperor's skills, not that of any mortal from the Imperium.
Also better is subjective and it doesn't say anywhere that the Custodes are the peak in the Galaxy. Greater Daemons will beat them easily 1v1. They'd be btfo'd by a Phoenix Lord.
The best of the Asuryani, Drukharii and Necrons can also take them. They're good, they're not invincible.
And if there was a codex: greater daemons or codex: phoenix lords, you'd have a point. But those aren't elite troops, they're individuals.
Technically there are literally millions more Greater Daemons than there are Custodes.
That one doesn't really play out though. Neither in narrative or in game do we ever see greater daemons deployed in even a moderate number.
Do we have to get the big map out and point out how there's literally half of the imperium cut off because the realm of chaos itself now cuts all the way across the entire imperium.
They cannot write enough novels about just how many words are currently being mercilessly crushed by chaos.
Just as we cannot make a wartime that is as inherently and horrifically imbalanced as the lore of 40k, where billions of guardsmen are thrown at enemy strongpoints.
Lore wise the custodes are only a half of the Emperor's legion with the other half being the sisters of silence. So they have s decent chance lore wise.
>The Ten Thousand
I’ll let you do the math
Ten thousand custodes plus how many 1,000s or 10,000s or sisters of silence who will automatically nullify most warp shenanigans with their presence/weaken greatly.
So, you understand that’s still less than millions
And you've answered my honest point with a dishonest one.
Your question is a lore one about combat power and elite status of a group in universe, I answered this and you've now responded to a point on lore with a response about table top mechanics. GWs plastic miniature sales convey nothing about in universe power.
But I'll answer you anyway: the Custodes have a codex because of consumer interest and warhammer armies are a corporate product designed to achieve maximal sales. By your own point the Guard would be more individually elite than Phoenix Lords because there's a Codex Guard.
It's in no way dishonest. A custode is a baseline troop. If you say a phoenix lord or a greater daemon, people will rightly ask, which one?
Elite troop: sternguard, terminator. Individual: chapter master, librarian. A custode is the former, a phoenix lord is the latter.
because there are 10,000 custodes and not 10,000 phoenix lords
Yes, precisely. One is an elite troop, in fact its own faction, the other is not.
So what's your point? The eldar should have troops that can take custodes? because they DO, in lore and tabletop, same with many factions, the custodes are artisan arts created by the emperor himself who we know was empowered with gene knowledge from his deal with the chaos gods, they are singular achievements that are popular and look cool, and there are enough of them to justify being their own thing, so they are, it's as simple.as that
What Imperial armies get a codex isn't a great way to mark this kind of thing. Specific space marine chapters of 1000 Marines have had their own codex in previous editions. If we exclusively went by codexes, then we would have to assume there is less variation to the warfare and unit types the entire dark eldar race uses across all its kabals then between blood angels and ultramarines. This is obviously not the case.
It's pretty obvious the custodes got their own codex because of human bias and imperial popularity. There is an incentive for games workshop to make very small factions with minute differences into entirely different armies. Don't take that type of stuff as lore.
It's not fair to xenos, but that's how it is. A more lore accurate way to look at it through the frame of a codex is if custodes were a single elite unit type with some wargear variation within the "Imperium" codex, in the same way an incubus is a single elite unit type in the dark eldar codex.
The Custodes, for all the lore boners about them, are a failed project. One of them acknowledges that himself, recognizing that while the Custodes are the elites the Emperor wanted, that the Grey Knights are the elites the Imperium needed.
The so called greatest elites in the Imperium were, for 10,000 years, reduced to what were essentially mall cops - guarding one fortress on one world.
They must have the most highly developed inferiority complex in the Imperium.
I've seen a lot of Custodes hate in this sub recently, and I think a lot of it is simply because their flaws are too subtle. The thing that makes Custodes interesting characters to me is that despite how outwardly perfect they are, inwardly there's a hollowness. Their greatest hero, Constantin Valdor, is pretty much an automaton, their rigid mindset meant they spent thousands of years doing nothing to help a slowly declining Imperium, their perfectionism is to the point where the slightest drop in skill causes them to either retire or sometimes even voluntarily confine themselves to a Dreadnought, and for how valid their criticisms of Space Marines are ultimately its mainly paranoia, partly born of being unable to forget a trauma that happened ten thousand years ago, partly born due to their inability to trust anything less brainwashed than themselves with power. But a lot of people see them, and go "Shield Captain Maximillian Generico killed thirty CSM without taking a scratch Custodes OP plz nerf". Which I kinda think is a problem with 40k writing in general, nothing can just be twice as strong as something else, it has to be at least ten times as strong.
I'd say it's being put the wrong way around. The root cause might be their flaws being too subtle, but the hate is in response to them constantly being jacked off by fans. Said jacking off might be because their flaws are too subtle so that might be the root cause, but the observable symptom is thread after goddamn thread of people insisting how perfect and amazing they are.
I think it's the nature of the setting - we do focus on the martial prowess.
I know for older types, some of the crankiness comes from how they've been powered up. Original Custodians weren't a faction - they were just guys in funny hats and speedos. As they've become a faction, to differentiate them from other power armour boys (and girls), they've experienced a power creep like none other.
They've become Golden Godlings, super fighters, spymasters, philosopher kings. A faction of Ward era Marneus Calgar's.
It also creates the weird scenario where there are ten times as many Custodians as there are Ultramarines - but the Ultras are vastly more accomplished. It requires really strange plot choices to justify why 10,000 Golden Godlings sat on their duffs for ten thousand years, while chapters of one thousand Space Marines routinely saved the Imperium.
It's evolving lore. Part of the fun of W40k is that nothing is static, and factions change in weird and wonderful ways. It doesn't always make sense - far from it - but that's the fun part. It's batshit crazy.
At this point I have to head Canon the rigidity and frankly stupid devotion they have to the exact words of the emperor to extreme levels or they just seem impossible.
I think that's perceptive. Like I say, they are a walking, talking inferiority complex. They might be near Demi gods, but they are failures. While the Space Marines conquer far flung worlds and take the fight to the enemy, the custodians are mall cops charged with a perverse version of Weekend at Bernie's.
Hell, even their name, stripped of faux Latin, implies "janitor".
That's why I always really like that passage where the Custodes compares himself to a Grey Knight. For all his god like trappings, he's very insecure. That's how you make a faction interesting - not their perfection, but their imperfection.
> Hell, even their name, stripped of faux Latin, implies "janitor".
Other way around. People started calling janitors "custodians" in an attempt to make their job sound more respectable and I think it might only be in the US.
what is the passage with the grey knights?
I mean their rabid fanboys aren't exactly helping, like that one dude who went around insisting a single low ranking Custodes could defeat Lelith without any effort and was upset about Drazhar taking on three and winning. These people *do not* see the flaws in Custodes.
The problem is that this is a wargame. And this company tells me 'this army is objectively better at anything. Whatever makes you unique, they do it also and do it in a superior way.'
As a non-fan I don't care about intricate plots that reveal the hollowness of what it means to be inhuman amongst humans. I just roll my eyes in annoyance that 5 of them take out a million Tyranids.
Meh, as a former Tyrannid player they’ve been a favorite punching bag of codex authors for ages. Need to make your force look awesome? Have them fight off a fleet with minimal casualties. We’re literally made up entirely of cannon fodder, it’s easy.
I think its hard to write Tyranids well because if you actually write them to be smart, they're pretty much almost impossible to defeat. They have more numbers than anybody else, plus they can just spawn whatever unit they need for the situation whenever they want, plus they can just invent a new one if they need something unique for the situation, plus their hive mind means they have perfect strategic co-ordination. So you have to kind of ignore the factions strengths and just reduce them to dumb bugs because its too hard for the heroes to win against a foe that can adapt to any circumstance lead by an inhuman mastermind intelligence.
Yup. If they were actually a gestalt consciousness made up of uncountable brains linked together as a sort of biological supercomputer, fighting them would rapidly turn into the endgame of Operation Enduring Freedom from Horizon Zero Dawn. Except they're even worse than the Faro Plague, because they can actually modify their own designs, can move between planets, have air capabilities, and worst comes to worst could potentially ditch the marcoscale designs entirely and go full biowarfare. They *have* to be written dumb to not break the setting.
Like, say hypothetically in the instance of Custodes vs the Tyranid swarm. The Custodes defended a single position. What was to stop the Tyranids from say, creating a bio-titan with a giant bio-plasma cannon, and turning them into slag with a bombardment? Its not like wasting biomass is an issue, just have the bio-titan walk into the reclamation pool once its purpose has been served. Its not any other faction, where you can say "The Chaos Space Marine warband doesn't have a Chaos Titan conveniently around for this scenario", Tyranids can spawn any creature they want.
Even looking at a purely tactical level, let's say you and a squad of elite troops have engaged in a glorious melee charge to take out a key synapse 'nid and smash their offensive. That Hive Tyrant is surrounded by a teeming mass of Gaunts, but they're basically speedbumps against such concentrated power, right?
Except each and every one of those Gaunts might suddenly act with the coordination and reflexes of a nearby synapse creature. You swing at the Tyrant and it spares a thought to have a Gaunt jump directly into the path of your weapon so that it doesn't have to parry and can go straight for a killing strike.
Or, outside the context of Decisive Melee Duels, a Gaunt saw you while you were taking cover in a building and since there was some Tyranids flying overhead the Hive Mind is able to triangulate your position and immediately direct indirect artillery fire on that location. Being able to do that level of ~~micro~~ coordination between troops when needed is scary.
Reminds me of the time tyranids did counter battery fire.
I mean that just sounds like a battered wife saying 'deep down he loves me'. Just because it constantly happens it isn't a good thing
I mean sure but they are fairly beatable on the table top. Custodes while very powerful can be out maneuvered. Which is one of their flaws in universe. There are 10000 of them not billions of worlds. They can’t be everywhere and many factions can use psykers to see where that is.
The problem is that a lot of people, quite a few authors included, don't see their perfectionism as a flaw and consequently they treat everything else as a failing on someone else's part.
It doesn't help that they got given hobbies and retconned into no actually they did secretly help all this time, making them more human than a lot of human characters and more useful secret agents than the secret agent characters.
I hate the grey knights, I just think they're dumb. Why the fuck did they steal one of mars' moons? Did jupiter not have enough?
Probably because the moon already had the infrastructure so you wouldnt need to create it by reusing the moon.
The thing about the custodes is they have a lot of resources and influence they pull strings in the shadows quite well.
You compare the IoM as is in 40k to the Scaven, the Custodes were created within the 30k Era for an Imperium that never came to be. At that time it was on the rise again, still barbaric in places for it rediscovered technology and made advancements.
As for "better" elite troops. At the peak of their power the War in Heaven had such an absurd power scale that it is hard to imagine "regular" troops to take place in it anyway.
The fall of the Eldar brought them back to the playing field the IoM is on, and in that regard the IoM is simply better prepared.
It is like this: You may be a perfect sharpshooter and a decent close combat specialist, but take away that rifle and throw you in a cage because your technology failed, you may end up outclassed against that guy who did nothing than prepare for this kind of combat.
The Eldar fell out of their comfort zone and thus are not perfectly prepared for it while it is THE comfort zone of the IoM so they have plenty of tools adjusted for just that kind of warfare.
I don't agree the Imperium are the Skaven of the 40k setting, but I can appreciate that there's quite a few commonalities. That said, even the Skaven are able to produce horrors that shred through multiple High Elves.
It's a joke because there are so many commonalities and it's hilarious how humanity in 40k are basically the same as a faction of literal evil rat people.
But it's clearly not an *intentional* analogy. It's just a humorous fan comparison.
> the Skaven are able to produce horrors that shred through multiple High Elves
Also, the Skaven are at least 50% responsible for ending the world.
I mean, when you think about it...
We are talking about an extremely xenophobic empire with an enourmous population, whose main tactic in war is to drown the ennemies in numbers with utter contempt for the life of its citizens. They are in theory led by their god, but in practice by a council made of the leaders of the most influencial factions within the empire.
Said factions are : Technology hoarders (Skryre/Mechanicus), Religious fanatics (Pestilens/Ecclesiarchy), Warlords (Munitorum/Warrior Clans), Mutants supersoldiers and other genetic monstrosities (Moulder/Space Marine and other transhumans) and Spies with the power to assassinate any of the other lords (Eshin/Inquisition).
I don't believe GW made the Imperium as the skaven counterpart, but there are a lot more similarities than it seems at first.
Aye and I think I would object a lot less to the custodes if they were horrifying and not in the fan wanking transhuman dread way. Like if we're going to get bioengineered/entirely remade genetic superwarriors guarding the Emperor, they should at least be fucked up horrors. I keep reading about how each one is its own unique masterpiece, but they all look like nine foot idealised humans. Each should be their own unique flavour of monstrosity.
I won't pretend the Custodes don't get wanked off a fair bit, heck I do it myself. However I will argue that their underlying horror comes from the fact that they might look like perfect humans, but if it is indeed what the Emperor truly wanted for humanity then we might as well let the Tyranids eat us all. It'd be the same end result.
Custodes can argue and offer criticism to the Emperor, but they'd never be able to actually disobey him. They can create works of art, or debate philosophy, but the underlying meaning and emotion behind any of it just isn't there. They're hollow humans stuck in a melancholic state, able to only commit to their duty and dread failure.
Constantin Valdor inherently wants to be like a warrior, and share in the banter with a rival warrior. Yet is unable to think of anything clever to say. When his rival asks what more the Emperor can take from Valdor, Valdor outright says there is *nothing.*
I think that's why I said 'not in the fan wanking transhuman dread way'. Making them all look like big amazing perfect humans (male only because either GW is sexist or the fandom is and they're catering) and making them so very perfectly intelligent and skilled and collected has meant a huge amount of frankly gross idolisation.
They're definetively not meant to be paragons like Captain America. They at best have some reletable traits, melancholic and reaching for a perfection they never reach.
>they should at least be fucked up horrors
Why? the emperor wouldnt make the PR disaster of making its honor guard a bunch of horrors, they are fucked up in a more suttle way like the fact that they are not real sentient beings like a human is since they dont have a real will of their own.
The Emperor hasn't been there for 12k years though. Would fit the setting well if that knowledge, too, had slowly eroded and the marble like super humans had slowly devolved into horrific slabs of meat.
No, because the second a custodes starts deeviating from the human form they would murder the person that made it and the custodes.
Eeeeeh not to burst your bubble, but their form is as human as that of a gorilla.
It's even acknowledged in-universe by them that the only thing left they have in common with humanity is the "animus" that they can't create in a lab.
>Eeeeeh not to burst your bubble, but their form is as human as that of a gorilla.
You are thinking of space marines, custodes form are more comparable to up scaled humans.
>‘To be human. To be you, Deven Fracoi Esterant Mudire. Had you been sent to the Ten Thousand this person that you are would not exist, as you have already said. Your gene-data would live on as one of my order, to be awakened to duty at some time in the future. The Custodian you would have been would bear no resemblance to the being you are now. We are, as you say, constructed, not born and raised. **From every piece of DNA to every fired neuron in our learning, we are conjured into existence from the techno-artifice left by the Emperor.** The most fundamental part of us, the animus, the soul that bonds us to the universe and Custodians to the Emperor, cannot be made from a compound in a tube, any more than a cogitator can conjure psychic lightning. **And so a child must be made with that animus, but that is all it is useful for.** Had you been rejected…
But one just has too look at them to realize that they have as much in common with the "Holy human form" as an Ogryn. The whole idea of it is religious superstition to begin with.
I mean the Imperium seems to have a pretty inconsistent criteria for what the 'human form' is. Goge Vandire had red heads exterminated for 'deviating from the human form' and nobody blinked an eye.
Then maybe there shouldn't be any custodes anymore. Genetic drift killing off Big Daddy E's favorites is good grim dark.
I agree with you on this point, i would have batly prefered if they made custodians a almost dead breed composed by the last hundreds with a new menber being added every century or so by just basic monkeys with writting machines principle that comand tempestus equivalents and sisters of silence.
Custodians are absolutely portrayed as terrifying. In birth of the imperium, a common soldier sees Constantine Valdor in an early deployment. He is so horrified by it that it turns him off of the imperium entirely.
Then have the ones the Emperor made look fine at the time, but over ten thousand years the technology to keep them human looking without losing capability be lost. The new ones are all individual styles of fucked up and the older ones are constantly mutilating themselves trying to stay human looking and over time failing. The only ones you see with helmets off are those that can still pass, most keep fully covered at all times.
Hell, if you want to make it extra ironic hint that it's the Emperor's own fault for his sexism - despite the fact that they're all completely rebuilt so it doesn't matter what gender they are, they're all male. Have it so that if he hadn't been a chauvinist and had also included women there'd have been more of a breadth of technique so less would have been lost.
Emps isn’t sexist, he’s just hella hella gay and wants to be surrounded by oiled abs at all times
I will die on this hill
I would argue that the two are not mutually exclusive.
Hella gay so he makes his honour guard into adonises.
Sexist by making his other part of the Legion be all female and force them to take a vow of silence with no genetic enhancements
>and force them to take a vow of silence
I very much remenber that this was a thing that krole started and the rest of sisters just followed her.
>with no genetic enhancements
I think he doesnt genetically enchance them because most genetic enchancamtents tend to have quite the mortality rate and nulls arent exactly common, also i do thnk they have something going on since at the very least we know that sisters can keep the pace with Custodians andd they also have a 7 inch movment on table top wich is faster than space marines.
>Emperor's own fault for his sexism
Emps isnt sexist and has never been i dont know where you pulledd that from seeing the fact that he had no issue putting women in high postions of power and responsability(see astartes), the reason as too why there arent female custodians there was a rummor wich i cnat confirm that female custodians were taken out of master of mankind because the Custodes models didnt have female sculps but the option might still be open.
>Then have the ones the Emperor made look fine at the time, but over ten thousand years the tec...
This sounds good but the tragedy of the custodians that james is going with is different, they are the " perfect" human stronguer faster, smarter beatifull and nightinmortal but stripped out of will so they sit with out doing anything because they arent human, they are more comparable to an automaton with sould for software and flesh blood and bone for hardware, automatons that could hve taken the reings of the imperium and have mantained the imperium in a much better state but since they cant really think on their own they just let the imperium rot for 10000 years.
Idk, no female Primarchs or Custodes? The Custodes are explicitly supposed to be his vision of the future of the human race, and there’s no women? That’s pretty strange bro.
Blame GW for that, we do know he didnt have any issues withputting women on postions of power.
I mean when you say a character is sexist, blame the author... yes? That's how it works, characters don't magically appear in books, if they're sexist someone chose to make them be.
And you're assuming the lack of female custodes is due to an author rather than it being a marketed product. There were going to be female custodes in Master of Mankind until they realized that all the models they were making happened to be male. The reason has nothing to do with characters and everything to do with business decisions made outside of the setting.
Ah, so in the end it's because they're catering to a fanbase that's sexist. And they didn't 'just happen to be male' - they didn't happen to only find male custodes in the resin mine they hew models from, they chose to make them all male.
Catering wise, if you're catering to sexists does that not also make you sexist?
The Custodes are not the Emperor’s vision for the future of mankind. The Emperor wanted humanity to evolve into psykers, and the Custodes are not that.
Watchers says the Custodes *are* the Emperor's vision.
> But we were His companions, once. We were the ones in whom He confided. We were His counsellors, we were His artisans. We **were the first glimpse at what the species could become**, if shepherded aright and unshackled from its vicious weaknesses.
That’s one narrator’s opinion. The Emperor’s plan is pretty well established throughout the rest of the lore. He didn’t want the Webway to have to time to make Custodians out of every human, he wanted the Webway to hide from Chaos and the Warp until every human became a Psyker.
That's a Custodes' directly stating what they are and why the Emperor made them, and the Custodes have a better idea of what the Emperor wanted and planned than the Primarchs did. The only person who knew better was *possibly* Malcador, and Malcador's dead.
Jesus Christ, learn to use punctuation.
> Emps isnt sexist and has never been i dont know where you pulledd that from
Easy, the custodes are all male. Space marines have a reason for it, but Games Workshop are sexist and so decided when humans got a second set of genetically engineered super warriors they should also be only male, because who needs women to feel welcome in this space eh?
> the Custodes models didnt have female sculps
Yes, because GW are sexist. And thus so is the Emperor, since he's fictional implementer of all of this.
>And thus so is the Emperor, since he's fictional implementer of all of this.
You mean the person who didnt put any laws against women in his empire and the man who made a woman the lider of his genetic cientists?
I also think this is an infraction of rule 6
I mean the person who made two entire sets of male only super human warriors, one of which there is no in universe reason for doing so other than sexism. You don't have to be overtly sexist to do sexist things.
And talking about GW or their intent does not violate rule 6.
>I mean the person who made two entire sets of male only super human warriors, one of which there is no in universe reason for doing so other than sexism.
In lore they say that it is easier for him to manipulate male genetics, and again i dont think female custodians are out of the question.
That's a justification, not a reason.
The fact that they don't already exist is proof of sexism, there was no reason not to include any. How many different sculpts do the custodes have? And fine, they added on something they never needed to to justify their sexism. Buck moved from the Emperor, it's just GW that are sexist.
40K fans generally refuse to accept the sexism of the setting, usually pointing to Sisters of Battle, and female Guardsmen. Hard to change opinions set in stone.
Original space Marines had female models but they under preformed in sales, so they got axed.
Game workshop went ahead and introduced the Battle sisters as their replacement, which are super powerful especially when you throw in living saints.
The Emperor's legion has the sisters of silence which also SUPER POWERFUL that deal with threats the custodes couldn't.
Sisters of Silence tend to be used to show how seriously powerful a psyker is by getting gibbed by said psyker or by said psyker showing off their power (see Malcador). They also tend to die a lot because unlike Custodes and marines, are entirely unaugmented.
Hell, Krole who was *the* most powerful null of her time got splattered by a fun guy who was hopped up on rage and Khorne-juice. She didn't even give him pause.
My only experience with them is watchers of the throne and plague wars, where they proved quite powerful
Just a coincidence that every super strong post human is a dude, huh. I think there's a reason there's a post on twox right now about how sexist the setting is.
You know that a Female was the head of the Primarch’s project and the Astartes project. Not sure where this sexist hate filled rant came from but you need a break from the internet.
That bit of lore is incredibly recent. It's not emblematic of the setting.
And none of the primarchs are (ie: main characters of 30k) and none of the astartes are (ie: main characters of 40k). One example of female representation doesn't negate the massive *trend*
I want this version of Custodes so bad. This is my headcanon now: newer custodes are riddled with genetic mutations of the worst sort. Their golden armor hides horrific mutants within.
Yes you’re right, this is a setting known for tubes sprouting from heads, grotesque musculature, deformed posture. Band from Batman should be a very unobtrusive form of custodes and the typical ones should be more ornately terrifying than that.
They do have tubes coming from their heads though. Many Custodes models have exactly the same paraphernalia as space marines, just not as many augmetics.
Yeah it's a little unfair. For one thing the Skaven are among the most inventive factions in the setting. They went to the moon!
I mean by that logic Primarchs shouldn't exist.
Not in the modern day, no. They were fine as a past glory/demigods of mythology kind of thing, same as the Emperor, but they have no place in the themes of the forty first millennium except as adversaries.
And in the past is where the custodes came from
The past is where Primarchs are from the too, neither fit.
Except the custodes are still around and so are their secrets
The Imperium is meant to be something like a Post Fall Rome, where those living in squalor can see peeks of a greatness they can't comprehend or have context for. The Custodes are such a relic.
Is this a shitpost?
Unfortunately not, the rest of his comments in this thread make it obvious OP is serious. Not to put to fine a point on it but if you read those comments they clearly just have a hate boner for Custodes and are making almost no sense in their rants.
Probably lost a Kill Team match to them recently.
As someone who plays Custodes in Kill Team, I would say their response is justified, if that is the reason for their hate
OP clearly came here to grandstand, they’ve gone off on rants about GW being sexist because they market male characters to their overwhelmingly male audience.
So basically it's not just the best faction but the best faction of another setting too? Impchads and Skavenchands can't stop winning.
I greatly dislike reddit's notion that the Imperium are the "Skaven" of 40k. It's inaccurate, limits the creative freedom of the faction, and honestly doesn't even make sense. Grimdank memes aren't lore-accurate.
The Imperium has a high population living in misery and relies on numbers in war, sure... but they also aren't warpstone-mining *literal rat men.* Not everything needs to be 1 to 1 between the different WH settings.
The reason that Custodes break the Skaven "theme" is because the Imperium aren't the Skaven.
Plus, Skaven are more of a swarm faction than the Imperium. Orks and Tyranids usually outnumber the IG when they battle.
> The Imperium has a high population living in misery and relies on numbers in war
Guess what also shares those features ... the Empire from WHFB! These "Imperium are Skaven" memes look especially nonsensical in how they ignore the faction in WHFB that the Imperium *most directly parallels* (largely because WH40K started as WHFB in space).
Nah, the Empire in WHFB is like fucking candyland compared to the IoM. It isn't entirely run by worthless sociopaths either.
Neither is the Imperium. Its amazing that this idea is even called out in lore as being straight up wrong but people still harp on it.
The Imperium is slow, it is inefficient, and its High Lords certainly play a part in that. But its a galaxy spanning empire ruled by 12 mere mortals, and the fact it has not yet collapsed is testament to their amazing competence, especially in the face of their limitations.
Its easy to think the Empire is run only by the best, most perfect leaders, when all most people know is Karl Franz, but its history is marred by centuries of corrupt and incompetent rule.
Theres a reason why Vlad Von Carstein was welcomed into ruling Sylvania with relative acceptance. Theres a reason why the Empire damn near collapsed multiple times. Theres a reason why there was a bloody civil war even during the Vampire Wars where the multiple pretenders straight up killed each other on the eve of battle against Vlad’s forces.
The Empire is as dark and as fucked up as the Imperium, and to think Karl Franz is but another competent Emperor is to ignore entire lines of absolute imbeciles.
I imagine the fact that the Skaven are kept in AoS while the Empire is gone has something to do with it.
Also the Imperium's so exaggerated compared to the Empire that the Skaven comparison is funnier.
It's also like, why do people even want 1:1s with Fantasy anyways? People fixate that Skaven = Imperium, but seem to forget that the Dark Eldar don't have any ambitions of building a reconstituted Eldar Empire that involves Exodites or Craftworlders. Likewise, the Craftworld Eldar aren't exactly clinging on to the remnants of what was once a powerful empire BUT still remaining to be major contenders in global politics. That's last vestiges has LONG since died.
I mean they're morally very similar.
Why do people keep saying that the Imperium is 40K Skaven, they don't even function the same and are vastly different than each other, only with minuscule commonalities between them. The Emperor isn't like the Great Horned Rat either.
It's a joke, but one that has a surprising amount going for it.
They're both defined by huge populations that are mostly packed into dense warrens, they're both heavily aesthetically inspired by the Nazis, they both travel through hell, they're both ruled by a council of 13 that is really 12 + their god, they're both genocidal towards other species, they're both constantly using advanced technology they barely understand, they both are based on extreme oppression of the lower classes, they both field elite genetically modified troops, and the Imperial Guard and Adeptus Mechanicus apparently play a lot like Skaven on the tabletop. (I always see Nids, Guard, AdMech, and GSC used as the Skaven analogues)
It's a joke that works both for the "where are the Skaven in 40k" discussion and for the inherent humor of humanity in 40k being the equivalent of literal rats.
Because everything 40K related obviously has an exact counterpart in fantasy/AoS /s
Except these people somehow miss the Imperium's blatant fantasy counterpart to draw a connection with really thin parallels.
Idk this post doesn’t make any sense to me.
the skaven of 40k should be the skaven. I desperately want rat people in this setting.
At the least it would get the people repeating this meme to shut up.
It's a meme because it's accurate. The Under-Empire and the Imperium of Man are both degenerate, worthless societies and eveyone else in the setting would benefit immensely if they just disappeared.
It would be fun, but a lot of people think there's a lot of overlap with the Imperium there. Now that it's split in two, could have the other half of the Imperium end up that way? Warp influence and people mysteriously start breeding faster and growing up more quickly, the teeming masses turn into the *teeming masses*. Culture changes, people get a bit more hunched and pinched faced and start building underground more.
just have the shitty half fracture into a bunch of sub factions and have one of those just become rat people mutants yes yes!
I vote the Ecclesiarchy.
This is one of the siliest comparisons there are. How exactly does one look to the crazy scientist/plague/alchemist rats who hate order with a passion and say "Yeah, that reminds me of the hyper conservative collapsing human empire in 40k"?
Because they deliberately forget about the human empire in WHFB that shares an awful lot of the same themes and imagery? IDK.
I know right? The Imperium was copied over from the WHFB Empire and shares almost everything with it yet people compare it to the quickly advancing chaotic rats?
Not to mention that some of the Imperium's themes have now been backported into WHFB for Cathay in the TW games, though more of a "pre-Heresy Imperium" than "post-Heresy".
The WHF Empire is pretty different from the 40K Imperium. AoS and it's Sigmarite whatever its called is much more the same.
I disagree that the Imperium is close to what the skaven are in fantasy. Skaven are an up and coming faction in fantasy with bounds of potential with technological and social advancement, limited only by their own in fighting. The Imperium before the heresy is even over is an empire that is in terminal decline. Technological and social advancements are extremely limited with the primary theme being stagnation, decay and neglect. Their military formations are complete shadows of their former selves and in this neglect have resorted to hoarding as much equipment as possible because so much of it can no longer be replaced. Custodes being incredibly powerful but not doing anything was perfectly in theme with a decaying empire which can no longer effectively distribute/assign resources because so many of its systems have broken down. Like the Dark Eldar having a bunch of theoretical super weapons which can't even be used anymore because of their degeneration.
Won't be long before we get a flavour of super mega duper Marines that are specifically designed to hunt Custodes and are even betterer than anyone else.
(To go with your anology, Custodes are closer to Stormfiends as they are the epitome of genetic horrors for that faction, but I still agree with you).
Hm. You're right, stormfiends are thematically a pretty perfect match. Just went for grail knights for the whole immortal and sort of perfect thing.
And you're probably right about the other thing too. Came back a few years later and on top of the already existing post-human genetically engineered superwarrior there was now the thematically superfluous PHGESW +ultra and golden PHGESW ++ultra special super saiyan. I suppose it's not long until we get PHGESW +++ultra super special mega hyper SSJ2.
Stormfiends have a scrawny little brain rat on their back controlling the giant cyborg rat ogre, which is much more obviously monstrous and wretched. If Custodes were being Ratatouilled around by a parasitic mutant they'd seem a bit less straightforwardly human+(++) than they currently do.
Imagine being this deluded. Us Custodes fans stay winning 🤣🤣🤣
Homie reeks of never having read anything about Custodes
"Noooooooo, how dare your faction not conform to my absurd expectations????"
[Just aggressively flex until they go away brother](https://youtu.be/I9n6iMeIW8A)
40k and Warhammer Fantasy are made by the same company, but are not the same setting. They're under no obligation to have the same themes or equivalent factions. Otherwise, why would both settings exist?
I don't want them to be equivalent, I used them as comparisons because it's an easy one. What other setting has a bunch of factions each with elite troops, but assymetrical degrees of eliteness, and will be familiar to 40k fans? There's one obvious choice.
Plus the Imperium is really skaveny.
I mean fair, but also you then have to account that comparisons are, nearly by definition, simplifications of what is actually happening.
In 40k, the Imperium isn't just one single faction / army, it's the splintered remains of humanity, that's kinda part of what makes it grim dark, that all these factions and parts of humanity don't necessarily work together or are always on the same side. Instead of all getting together and staying on the same page, each faction and player, even setting aside subfactions, have their own interests and agendas. They could steamroll their enemies if they worked better together, but they refuse to, such is humanity fallen.
And honestly, Gaurdsmen kinda fit the Skaven if you really want to force it. Their tactics really depend on targets and mass supplemented by armor and guns. Skaven are very much hammer and anvil, and so are the Gaurd. It's just that the Imperium isn't just the guard. And 40k isn't just fanasty.
Every faction usually does have a elite version of troops, but here's the thing: The better stuff you get, the more resources it costs. The elite units are just the more costly ones. Custodes aren't going around battlefields alongside guardsmen, at least in tabletop. They're seperate beings entirely with separate goals and aims, and not even controlled by the same power, they're almost entirely independent from the rest of the Imperium in most senses.
Also, you're missing one of the big themes / motifs of 40K, which is the abuse / forgetting of old better technology. This isn't just for the Imperium, nearly every faction, with the exception of Tyrranids and Tau, are beings that, at some point, fell from grace, and have not recovered.
Eldar, both Craftworld and Dark, face the extinction of their race, with the Craftworlds focused on long term survival and the big picture. They may not have fallen in the same sense as the Imperium, and they still seem to be able to innovate, but they are not what they used to be, and all focus it put on both the short terms needs of the Craftworlds and how to get around the massive realspace-hole-ripping problem that is She Who Thirsts.
And the Dark Eldar, though they may be advancing quite well, are stifled because they don't care about shit. For as much as they may be advancing in gene-editing, they don't care about massing an army or taking over the Imperium, they just care about the most fucked up thing they can do with it. Nothing matters more than just sheer fucked up enjoyment and sensation.
The Orks were once the Krorks, and even though they don't really care, they are literal jokes of what they once were.
The Necrons are similar. They literally caused the Warp to exist as it does now, but they're split between dynasties and tying to wake up from their few thousand or million year nap. Not to even mention the loss of their very mortal existence and souls for most of them.
Even Chaos used to be greater, and while it still fucks, there's plenty of evidence that they got down to really bad stuff in the past, and the constant crusades of the Imperium, while it has helped things, also can hurt. And for as much as the Imperium fuels Chaos, there's also hints that the belief in the Emperor has resulted in soul stuff being given to him rather than them.
And the Imperium.
The Custodes are examples of the great tragedy of humanity in living form.
They were intended to be what the Imperium would become. Stalwart figures with perfect reflexes and minds honed to an edge, living for millenia, able to instantly strike down any foe that would dare get close to the heart of humanity.
But up until now, they confined themselves to the Palace and mourned for the Emperor, unwilling to go out and act on the rest of what humanity had become.
The very process of how to make a custodian had been lost with the Emperor. And if tales from the DOAT are to be believed, they're not even the top of what humanity could even be.
The hope that the Emperor had that humanity would rise to the level such as his custodians were died out with him.
Even the knowledge that only 10 thousands years ago, was so able to be used and mastered by the leaders of the Imperium, is lost.
The custodians are remnants of an age that cannot even be hoped to be achieved again. And they are not even the highest of what humanity has accomplished. They represent what humanity could be, but also that it can never hope to achieve this again. For so much had been lost, and it cannot be regained, at least as is. For in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is no progress or rebuilding of what once was. There is only war.
> And honestly, Gaurdsmen kinda fit the Skaven if you really want to force it. Their tactics really depend on targets and mass supplemented by armor and guns. Skaven are very much hammer and anvil, and so are the Gaurd. It's just that the Imperium isn't just the guard. And 40k isn't just fantasy.
Thematically though, Guard don't have really have much to do with the Skaven.
Re: Necrons and the Warp, do you mean the consequences of the War in Heaven?
How is the imperium skaveny. Pls elaborate. The skaven are literal rat men who get high on warpstone, have cowardice and treason as a bloody virtue, don't get their empire run in they frequently bring the war to the mortal realms, are madly in love with chaos having their own chaos god and.. almost forgot PLAY IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SETTING. People who post this are the same who post "it's just like dark souls" - memes unironically.
Not every game that's difficult is like dark souls and the skaven are not like the imperium bcs "there are so many of them" there are lots of army's that work in hordes e.g Tyranids, orks, etc.
People just take r/grimdank memes as gospel and think they’re lore accurate. See Ork gestalt field, Yvraine + Guilliman, and pretty much everything about DKoK.
If you repeat a lie enough times…
Look man, every faction got to pick ONE thing they are really good at.
The imperium just so happened to get
"Best at everything : always"
The dark eldar are fucked over by the fact they can't use psychic powers in the creation of supersoldiers. Quite a bit of literal magic goes into the creation of custodes on top of the technology. Craftworld eldar could replicate them I guess, but they don't because of cultural reasons (maybe?).
Actually, I think you'll find that Bretonnian peasants are the one form of existence even more foul than Skavenslaves.
So the Grail Knights are appropriate.
Bretonnians are kinda like Imperial Knights, but a ***way*** funnier version.
I want to see them in Age of Sigmar just so we can have them face the Flesheater Courts and see who can outsnob the other.
In the 40k RPG's I've run, I always have Asuryani Warriors and Drukhari Trueborn on the same level as Astartes. They are beings to be feared, a single unit of them able to effectively take down an entire regiment of Guardsmen if given enough time and operational mobility. That said, they are rare enough that each Aeldari is a named NPC.
Custodes could beat said units of Warriors and Trueborn in a fight. But that's not what they're for. Custodes used as combat force multipliers are Custodes *not* used as command staff, civil administrators, and propaganda pieces. Custodes are governors of governors, substitute kings when the time calls for their rule, yet they are also scholars of the highest degree, able and willing to relinquish their power once the situation has been resolved. A Custodes forced to fight is a Sub-Sector lost. Yes, any battle in which a Custodes fights will likely be won, but a war over which a Custodes commands will also likely be won. You make the trade.
Only there will never be such a case because even in M42 the Ten-Thousand Heroes rarely leave a single fortress on a single planet because they are the most overly qualified security staff in existence.
The Space Marines are the Stormvermin, so that's covered, I think.
So… the imperium can’t have custodes because the skaven have stormvermin???
The imperium isn’t even the most horde-y faction- it’s vastly outdone by Orks and Nids on that front.
And funnily enough both of them have some of the biggest baddest elites.
So yeah nah- logic doesn’t exactly check out: IoM has no reason to be limited based off what the skaven have in a different setting
Stormvermin have a lot of parallels to Space Marines, since they're both genetically and phenotypically distinct subraces/castes of their species, who tower over the vastly larger normal population, both literally and metaphorically
"Imperium should have stormvermin"
**Points at the Space Marines**
**Points at armored rat orges**
I don't think the Custodes *are* the best 'elite troops' in the setting. You've got Harlequins (particularly Solitaires), Triarch Praetorians (heck, even Lychguards like Oberon are probably superior), and so on. Heck, even the Custodes themselves acknowledge that they're about on even footing with the Grey Knights or particularly tough Space Marines like Asterion Moloc.
>e about on even footing with the Grey Knights
This is just not true, custodes trade 1 for 4 with psychic space marines in terminator armour, you probably pulled that from when a custodian said that grey knights matched him in demon killing potencial.
This is pretty wrong. Lychguards trade evenly into Space Marines, Custodes are not in the same ballpark. Triarch Praetorians have not appeared enough for me to know if they’re vastly ahead of Lychguard but it seems like they’re rather comparable, perhaps a little more elite.
In the Emperor’s Legion, Valerian does not say that he is equal to a Grey Knight, he claims he is equal to a squad of them. In the second book, he doesn’t claim that Moloc is an equal, just that he isn’t certain of his victory if they fought. There is a difference, and for the record, Moloc is not even close to your average space marine, and Valerian is extremely self-effacing (for a Custodian anyways.)
The Harlequin thing was weird nonsense. Drazhar killed three Custodes and he’s supposed to be a badass for it (and many other reasons). Pretty sure Phoenix Lords still outrank Harlequins in the hierarchy of deadliness. Two Eldar tearing through 20 Custodes and countless Lucifer Blacks is just a consequence of being written before the retcon/repackaging/release of the Custodes into 40k.
It wasn't 2 eldar, it was a shadowseer, a death jester, and an *entire troupe* of Harlequins. Of which only the shadowseer and death jester survived.
From what I understand, Drazhar fought three at once and defeated them quite easily, while Death Jester just fired at them, and Shadow Seer fought them in turn and was defeated pretty quickly once she faced several at once.
Because everyone is so clean and edumakated in Karl Franz's Empire. Skaven are smelt rats, rackgouls, or Tyranids. Its blindingly obvious who mankind is.
They may be the same race, but I see the Custodes as separate from humanity, kind a the same way SM and AdMech are, etc. They are loyal to The Emperor, not the Imperium
I mean, the Custodes are OP for sure, but they're defined by the fact that when they were needed most to fulfill their mission they *failed*, with horrific consequences, and that failure has left them in a state of trauma up until the present more than 10k years later.
By your logic then the imperium should also have the best ranged weaponry in the setting. Skaven rattling guns and doomwheels absolutely shat on anything the fantasy factions could produce.
There are many counters to this but the biggest is this: even in your comaprison,t he Skaven were leagues ahead of every other faction.
They had the telephone in the middle ages, nukes, and all of that while everyone else relied on fedualism to a degree... or magic.
or magical feudalism.
So if anything if you want to call the imperium skaven they should somehow be leagues ahead of everyone else.
I mean both Custodes and Stormvermin have long polearms and protruding helmets
Dark Eldar do make something better, or at least something similar. Grotesques are broadly similar to Custodians.
Drukhari are better than random human scientists (and even then not whoever made polumorphine), not the Emperor of Mankind. They have never made anything that comes even remotely close to a Custode, let alone a Primarch.
Nids, lil guy. Duh.
They are 40k's Brettonia, the vast amount of the population living in squalor while the chosen few live in luxury. Massive class imbalance.
>The custodes are the best elite troops in the setting and they really shouldn't be.
That's the thing- they aren't. Harlequins are the biggest badasses of the Aeldari, and a standard troop member is roughly is dangerous of a combatant as a standard Custodes. The difference however is that the more elite members of the Harlequin troops are notably more deadly than the equivalent Custodes. Perhaps only someone such as Valdor or Valoris can hope to take on a Greater Deamon alone and triumph. We have accounts of Solitaires doing exactly that.
Stormvermin would be a funny way for enemies to refer to scions